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masonsmama
03-08-2008, 10:38 PM
I have been reading a lot about EC....and have been reading many posts in this forum. I do feel that I am beginning to understand the basic belief behind EC, but I just have a hard time coming to agree with it. :hide: This is not a snarky post, I am seriously asking.....I see SO MANY posts that say "won't sit there" "cries every time I put him/her on the potty" "doesn't want to stay on the potty" etc etc. :crying: Is it possible that some children just aren't able to be PL'd using EC methods? From the outside looking in, it seems that these babies are giving cues loud and clear, only they aren't pottying cues...they seem like cues that say "I'm just not ready." Then I read of babies being held on the potty for 5, 10, 20 minutes....it seems that most research would indicate that the attention span of an infant is not 20 minutes (I know as an Early Childhood educator, periods of focused, sustained 20 minute activities are often a challenge for toddlers, let alone infants). So, how is it developmentally appropriate for a baby to be held on the potty for that length of time. Then I saw a post that says "Despite what the APA says, infants can control their sphincter muscles." So does that mean the APA's research and findings are inaccurate? With all due respect, it sounds like SOME mamas jump on board with EC'ing because they want to join in, because it is something new and intriguing to them, because they have a friend who's doing it, because it is novel, etc etc. (Of COURSE there are many more positive, appropriate reasons that many moms are doing this...I only used those examples to play devil's advocate.) I just wonder/worry if there are mamas who are EC'ing for their own reasons, at the expense of the child's comfort/contentment/development, etc. Is that possible? Please don't flame me, I am really interested to see if there is another side to the EC'ing coin....or if you feel it is a universal one size fits most approach, that if you try and really cue in with your infant, it will work, and it's just a matter of trying to figure out baby's cues/patterns to make more catches. It seems to me that there would be a vast number of infants that this wouldn't work with? I'd be eager to hear your responses.

onlygirl
03-08-2008, 10:42 PM
oh well i wanted to ec, but never got one little sign. so i bagged it. i decided to let the kids decide when they were ready.

MamaOf3Cuties
03-08-2008, 10:46 PM
:popcorn:

masonsmama
03-08-2008, 10:46 PM
:goodvibes: It's good to hear that mamas are listening to the "I'm not ready" cues too...

onlygirl
03-08-2008, 10:48 PM
:goodvibes: It's good to hear that mamas are listening to the "I'm not ready" cues too...

every child is different and should be treated that way. i have 4 kids and either i didnt get it, or they were not ready. so that was that. would have been so nice to have them fit in with how i wanted it but thats just not always practical.

masonsmama
03-08-2008, 10:51 PM
Do you think that some babies have a stronger tendency toward EC'ing than others? If so, I wonder why that is. It is interesting that some infants give definite, discernable cues, and then for others it's hard to tell at all. Also, do you think starting earlier/later, etc. makes any difference. Like is there a "window of opportunity" or "sensitive period" where EC'ing can be applied more successfully?

eguisgirl
03-08-2008, 10:53 PM
:popcorn: good questions.. I don't do EC with my kids, but I am interested in the answers to your questions.. :goodvibes:

onlygirl
03-08-2008, 10:56 PM
i really do think some kids are more apt to be able to do it, as well as some parents are more able to pick up the cues. just like some kids are more likely to be artists or scientists, no diff in my book really.

~Peach~
03-08-2008, 11:05 PM
I dont EC but I think the main thing is communication. If I were to do it I would just look for cues that my baby is ready to potty (ie if she is grunting whip the dipe off and put her on the potty) that type of thing. I dont get how you can tell your child is going to pee unless you keep track of or chart when they are most likely to pee.

masonsmama
03-08-2008, 11:08 PM
I can see how a chart would be helpful to predict patterns. I wonder though how much cause and effect is really being understood by the infant? I get that you look for a cue like a grunt, face, posture, etc....and then get them to the potty. But is there a conscious connection between the two things being made on the part of the infant?

onlygirl
03-08-2008, 11:17 PM
to be honest, i either wasnt doing it right, or i was right to stop doing it, whatever was the case, i felt i was adding more stress to an already stressed life so i stopped trying, now granted this was over 7 years ago with my first, and over 6 years with my second, so i am no expert, but i felt as though i was causing more harm than good. they were happy babes in dipes and not so happy out of them. thats all i can say on it. i felt not ecing was the best for the kids. not to say thats true of all kids mind you.

palestrina
03-08-2008, 11:17 PM
A child can't be ready or not ready for EC. EC is not traditional potty training in the sense that the end goal is not to get all the pees in the potty. The goal is to communicate with your child about their elimination needs by learning their cues, etc. It is an ongoing process that eventually will end in "graduation" after you and your child become so in sync that the child can signal to you when they need to go and you can understand the signals.

masonsmama
03-08-2008, 11:22 PM
I admire the goal of synchronizing receptive and expressive cues, and I appreciate that the final goal is not the actual pee/poo in the potty, but the relationship and communication that is developed. But before the child is able to express this need appropriately, isn't there a lot of guessing and assuming? Also, with the sound cues...are they in place to start to associate the location with the action? It seems to me that very young infants would have a very difficult time making this association?

borja010
03-08-2008, 11:43 PM
A child can't be ready or not ready for EC. EC is not traditional potty training in the sense that the end goal is not to get all the pees in the potty. The goal is to communicate with your child about their elimination needs by learning their cues, etc. It is an ongoing process that eventually will end in "graduation" after you and your child become so in sync that the child can signal to you when they need to go and you can understand the signals.

:yeahthat:

Yes! Communication is the operative word here. EC is NOT about pl'ing, though it is a happy consequence of the communication in this aspect of childcare. Yes, mamas should def. be listening to dc but I think maybe you're taking the posts out of context (or poss. I am not getting the gist of what you're saying in full, I admit I'm not a real active reader of posts on this particular EC forum.)

DC can be communicating something, but not ness. "I'm not ready" in the sense that I take you to mean it. My dd has exhibited this behavior that you speak of to mean, for example - mom, I know you know I need to pee but I want to pee standing up right now LOL yeah, that's happened a few times. Another one in my experience is -back off mom, you're taking this a little too serious r/n, I'll sit in a minute when I'm ready.

Want to type more but can't r/n but I'll be back!

Oh, but for now let me point you to the best site I know of that promotes the true spirit of EC as I see it (emphasis on the communication rather than PL)

http://www.natural-wisdom.com/faq.htm

And btw, your post doesn't come off as snarky at all, It's a totally valid point :thumbsup:
:goodvibes:

Sunshinesmiles22
03-08-2008, 11:48 PM
I admire the goal of synchronizing receptive and expressive cues, and I appreciate that the final goal is not the actual pee/poo in the potty, but the relationship and communication that is developed. But before the child is able to express this need appropriately, isn't there a lot of guessing and assuming? Also, with the sound cues...are they in place to start to associate the location with the action? It seems to me that very young infants would have a very difficult time making this association?

You have some interesting questions. Personally, I think ec'ing is something that comes naturally when you take out many of the "road blocks" such as rushing constantly, being too busy to listen, etc. Much of the world does/did "ec" (or a form of it) because it's one of those things that just makes sense. Babies do NOT like to soil themselves. Just like my doggie has an inate sense of NOT wanting to mess on himself (even in a tight fitting crate). My doggie will "let" me know when he needs to go. I just need to learn to understand him.

My lo never had a hard time letting me know she needed to go. In the beginning, as I was learning about her, I would take her at the obvious time. As time wore on, I'd get this feeling that she needed to go. It sounds strange, but many other peoples of the world describe the same thing. You have a connection with your baby and just KNOW. I'd ignore it sometimes, and sure enough, she'd wet. Once, I told my hubby she needed to go, and he didn't take her very quickly, and she went on him (she'd wait long enough--honestly).

It seems crazy that lo's would get this, but mine did. And i don't think she's SO much more amazing than everyone else's babies. :giggle2:

I always go back to my dog. He's a black lab and I think he's just as smart as can be. But, when all is said and done, he's a dog. My baby is just plain smarter. She's a human. She'll sometimes fuss at me. I'll make the potty sign and I swear she starts bouncing with glee. Like, "wow, mommy, you got it right@!!". She even makes the sign herself sometimes. Mind you, she's almost a year now, but she's been doing this since she was 4 months.

I know the aap says they can't control their muscles, but either my baby is better than the other babies, or they can. There's no other way to explain the fact that I can sign to her or say "go potty" or make the "pssss" sound and she goes. Then.

Does that make sense?

I think this concept of being in touch with our babies is a strange thing in the western world, but so is natural childbirth. People have been doing it that way for a long time. And only "this" way since just recently.

palestrina
03-09-2008, 12:03 AM
Yes, it is definitely "guessing" or "being intuitive" at first, but generally you very quickly you learn your child's individual behaviors and timing. Such as they need to go every 30 min in the morning or they start to fuss or ask to be picked up when they need to go.

For the sound cueing, it is meant to associate the act of peeing with the feeling of peeing (using the muscles) not the location. The location can change--from being held over the sink, to a little potty or standing up outside--but the baby will learn to associate the sound with the actual act of peeing, then you can make the sound when they are on the potty for example, and if they need to go, they will make the association and pee.

Some mamas have posted problems with the little ones not being receptive to certain ec techniques, but usually that can be solved by switching up the techniques, such as having the child go on the big potty instead of the baby potty. If the child keeps resisting everything or you can't figure out any signals, you can still EC on the very lowest level--give the baby naked time for 30min or an hour a day and cue them when the pee to maintain their awareness of elimination and their associations. Eventually, the child will enter a stage where they are more receptive to the various techniques.

lulusmom
03-09-2008, 12:49 AM
The goal in infant care in general is to be in tune with your child. They say that the act of breastfeeding teaches women how to be good mothers, for the simple reason that you feed on demand and learn baby's cues for hunger, sleepy, etc. ECing is another great way to "learn how to be a good mother" because you are tuning in to your lo's needs and is an extension of knowing when they are tired, hungry, etc, to know when they need to pee/poop. Just like with a newborn, parents can guess when they infant cries what he is crying about, whether they are hungry or uncomfortable, and eventually they learn to differentiate between different hunger cues, sleepy cues, restless cues, and it's the same with EC cues. You get better at it over time, and it's all about you reading the baby and getting to the point where you just know what the baby needs, just like any other aspect of parenting a baby. It doesn't have anything to do with the infant being trained, or being "ready" for EC like potty training. After all, babies need no training to tell you they are hungry or uncomfortable. This is no different. :goodvibes:

~Peach~
03-09-2008, 01:50 AM
I can see how a chart would be helpful to predict patterns. I wonder though how much cause and effect is really being understood by the infant? I get that you look for a cue like a grunt, face, posture, etc....and then get them to the potty. But is there a conscious connection between the two things being made on the part of the infant?
You would be amazed at what babies can pick up on. Just to sorta give u an example (sorry a bit O/T) recently my dd has started handing me stuff. If she has something in her hand I hold my hand out and she places it in my hand willingly. All it took was constantly holding out my hand or pointing to my hand for her to get it. BTW she is 10 mos.
Sorry that was a bit longwinded but I wanna say I give you ECing moms props. :thumbsup:

VelouriaMom
03-09-2008, 09:04 AM
You've gotten some great responses but I just want to add my :2cents: !

I haven't seen the APA's data on sphincter muscle control in babies so I can't judge it and say that it's wrong. What I can say is that my 4 month old will wake me up at night when she has to pee and will hold it as long as she can or until I put her on the potty, whichever comes first.

Sure babies don't like to sit on the potty sometimes. I think the main reasons are 1) not having to go at that moment or 2) not wanting to take time out of what they're doing to sit on the potty. I think the second one especially applies to older babies. Doesn't the same thing happen with PLing?

Some babies may be better at EC than others, just as some PL quicker than others. I think the main thing is starting early so the baby is still in tune with his/her bodily functions. I believe that all babies give signals that they need to eliminate but most of those signals are ignored for months so the babies give up. My DD is a great candidate for EC b/c she HATES to be wet. She can't even stand tiny little newborn dribbles. It's better (and easier and cheaper) for both of us to get her to the potty in time instead of doing 30-40(!) diaper changes a day.

gracefaith
03-09-2008, 09:15 AM
I think it bears repeating that a bunch of crazy, crunchy western moms didn't just make this up one day. This is how many MANY societies take care of their babies elimination needs. That's right - some cultures don't use diapers. Ever. Period. So, are all of these babies specially gifted or what? Could it be that babies have a more instinctual desire to not soil themselves than we or the APA gives them credit for?

I'll be honest. I was a skeptic. I thought I would learn to "catch" as some sort of party trick. I really had no idea what HE was really capable of. I am still shocked every time I get this I think he needs to go feeling, take him to the potty and he goes. It also gets me to watch him push. He actually knows there is something up there! Amazing. I don't make him stay on the potty if he is crying, but if he is pushing, I'll let him stay as long as he wants and sometimes that can be 5 or 10 minutes. You should see how happy his on the potty. I think he enjoys having control over something, being able to cause something to happen amuses him.

gracefaith
03-09-2008, 09:20 AM
Oh, and I wanted to add about the cueing sound. He has made a connection between the sound and going potty. Again, I was shocked by this, but it has been proven by the fact that he has pottied in many places other than just his little potty. He's used the big toilet or the sink at home, at church, at his grandparent's, at a friend's house, at a Wendy's - places that were completely new to him. The only common denominator was the way I held him and sound I made.

borja010
03-09-2008, 10:46 AM
:clapclap: to prev. posters, all very well put! Not much more to add but to address one of the ??? in op... EC, like anything else, is what you make of it. It's possible that someone out there could be practicing their skewed version of EC to the detriment of their child's comfort/contentment/development, just as there are people out there who use cruel or insensitive methods to coerce PL in older kiddos. And as for the APA's stance on sphincter control, was research even ever conducted by them or anyone else in this regard? Just wondering... I'd be interested in seeing it if you have a link or can point me in the direction of a journal article, etc. As far as I know, this is just a statement.

Khourtniey
03-09-2008, 11:02 AM
I could do EC all day long with my youngest but it wouldnt work. His sphincter is broken.. He literally urinates all day long. The pressure in his bladder is extremely high. His bladder spasms constantly and he constantly leaks pee out. If I attempted EC with him it would be pointless. He has no "cues". So what do I do? I drug him to calm his bladder and then get to stick a cathether into him every couple hours around the clock to help him urinate. The meds stop his bladder from spasming, thus stopping him from peeing. Oh and his bladder is only about 1/6 the size it should be... Where is the fun in EC with all of this?

FWIW I believe that most babies CAN control the sphincter to a certain extent.. Of course as they mature so does the control. This is from constant urodynamic studies.

To me I think EC is more natural than pottying in diapers... I believe that the whole point of EC is to teach the child to signal you. I dont think its trying to catch the pees or poops in the potty when they are grunting. I believe the goal is to be able to read the child and know BEFORE the child starts grunting and peeing that they need to go and give them the chance then.

lil'mommakaye
03-09-2008, 12:06 PM
what a great thread! everyone has such valid Q's and points! and its all being communicated so well!!! i just have to add my :2cents: in!:goodvibes:
I agree w/ so much of the pp. it IS all communication. Elijah prefers to use the potty for BM. i decieded to try EC when he was grunting durring supper one day, and since then his ques are so clear(crabbing and crying before he goes) and he is also associationg the word poo poo and potty w/ the bathroom and going @ 10mos. i can tell he compleatly understands too. he will crab and ill ask him do you have to go..poo poo or potty and he will smile. i take him into the bathroom and he smiles. as soon as he sits oN the potty he pushes and goes! we are no where near the peeing thing though!:giggle: sometimes we catch it, mostly we dont. he has no cues for that yet.soon im sure he will though! i thing a great tip would be to learn communication on the subject and follow the LO's cues. take it easy, it is somthing that will eventually be natural, as it should be. I totally enjoy it and i know DS does too!:mrgreen:

sunnymw
03-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Haven't read all the replies, but just wanted to say that we are very much only part time EC, mainly because DS goes through phases where he cues more or less. For instance, we EC'd with diaper back up from 4-6 months, stopped altogether from 6-8, then on again from 8-10, then off again until 12 months, then basically just diaper-free at home all the time from then on.

I never held him over the potty for any set amount of time... if he held still, we stayed. if he wanted to move, we moved and put a diaper on. Sometimes he wanted to go in a diaper and sometimes he wanted to go on the potty... it was really all up to him, which is, to me, what EC is really all about. Following his cues, no matter WHAT they say.

It got a lot easier once he was mobile because I'd never make him stay on the potty. If I thought he had to go I'd put him on it and hand him something to play with (otherwise he'd just get distracted, period). If he got up and peed elsewhere, no biggie.

He's 16 months now and pees on the potty when he remembers, or when I put him on it. Otherwise he goes in a diaper or, occasionally, on the floor.

:)

masonsmama
03-09-2008, 12:21 PM
Mamas, thank you one and all for keeping this a drama free zone! I am so impressed and respectful of the fact that everyone has been able to share opinions, ideas and beliefs without turning this into a drama fest. I am learning lots, and have come across info that I agree with and info that I don't agree with. It is really great to hear so many mamas are doing this with sensitivity to their child's needs....and, while it may not be a choice that I would make at this point, I respect each one of you for being willing to share your experiences, beliefs, etc. I am impressed and amazed that everyone has been so receptive to my questions, and it has really helped me to gain a deeper understanding of the idealogy, methods, etc. You have restored my faith in the diaperswappers mamas! Seeing how ugly some of those diaper forums get, I'm glad we could have such a great thread, and share lots of info and opinions. We should all get some kind of diaperswappers keep the peace award! :thumbsup: Thank you mamas for sharing what works and doesn't work for you, your background, experiences and personal stories. I always appreciate learning more, even about things I might not necessarily choose for myself. You guys rock! :thumbsup:

Khourtniey
03-09-2008, 01:02 PM
Drama? You want drama?!?! :) I can start some drama hehe.

Wildflowers
03-09-2008, 01:38 PM
I have mostly skimmed previous responses. I did ec with my second daughter. We startedat 4 months, she didn't wear a diaper at home. Then at 7 months she didn't war a diaper to bed then at year she never wore a diaper again. We had strikes, but really the way she communicated with me was amazing. As for control of their sphincter muscles, she would hold it often when we were out to when she was comfortable. It bothered me slightly. At 5 months she went 4 hours not peeing. I had to sit down outside with her without a diaper to get her to pee. So her ec story is quite amazing. I was pretty fanatic about ec. I was a dfb leader and I just plain loved ec.
Then my third daughter was born. We were going to start from birth. It was going to be great. But then she pooped in her sleep, peed while nursing, peed in her sleep, gives no signs she is doing any of this. So she is almost a year and we have caught one poop and maybe 5 pees. She is actually giving me some signs now. But she wasn't for ec. I have to respect that. I do think that some kids it is great and others not so much. It makes me kinda sad because I loved the communicating with my previous daughter.

gracefaith
03-09-2008, 03:28 PM
Drama? You want drama?!?! :) I can start some drama hehe.

:giggle: Yeah, after I posted all nice-like, I went away and thought what if she DID mean to me snarky?!

As long as it is understood that we are trying to be loving and sensitive to our children and that we EC as an extension of that, it's all good. It upsets me a little to think that people might think I'm hurting or pressuring my kiddo to do this. Believe me, it's almost all him. I'm just potty transport. If he wanted to stop tomorrow, he could just go in his diaper without cueing me and there would be pretty much nothing I could do about it. As it is, I feel like ECing is a way for me to respect his communication with me, the same way one respects a baby's cries when he is hungry.

jenneonthespot
03-09-2008, 05:56 PM
Do you think that some babies have a stronger tendency toward EC'ing than others? If so, I wonder why that is. It is interesting that some infants give definite, discernable cues, and then for others it's hard to tell at all. Also, do you think starting earlier/later, etc. makes any difference. Like is there a "window of opportunity" or "sensitive period" where EC'ing can be applied more successfully?


I haven't read all the posts, mainly just the first page, but wanted to add my :2cents: . I was an EC skeptic with my first. When my second hit about 2-3 months, he really started to show cognizance of when he peed or pooped. He would literally cry immediately upon soiling his diaper. I really think I probably could have EC'd him, but didn't know the signs. By the time he was nearing 12-14 months, I could tell he was used to going in his diaper, and didn't any longer think anything of it. In other words, I realized too late that he was "EC material." I wish in hindsight that I would have at least tried it. :( I do know for a fact, though, that I would never have been able to EC my firstborn. Just personality differences. :goodvibes:

lindsayjean
03-09-2008, 06:02 PM
Like others have said... EC is not PL and if someone is looking at it as such, they probably aren't true ECers. EC is about the child and listening to them. If they are screaming bloody murder on the potty- then you need to listen to that and try something else.

My daughter is the reason I am doing EC... I wasn't PLANNING on doing it, but through being in tune to her, we just kind of naturally fell into it at 11 months. She was telling me she wanted to! It isn't a forced thing- just teaching kids to be aware of when they pee/poop. It's makes SO much sense to me now, I wish I would have done it sooner. I mean, why do we train kids to forget they are eliminating and go in a diaper and then... a few years later train them to not go in it anymore? It should be a more gradual process.

Synchro246
03-09-2008, 07:18 PM
I can give you my perspective as someone who failed at EC:blush:

I EC'd my first full time from 7 weeks to about 6 months. Then I met IRL friends who shared similar parenting philosophies as me and I got really busy and EC went downhill.
I was someone who would sit with my babe on the potty (we used an adult toilet backwards) and sit there a short while (never more than 5 mins) with him crying to get off:blush:

ETA-- I will be back with more info, I need 2 go now.
Do you think that some babies have a stronger tendency toward EC'ing than others? . . . Also, do you think starting earlier/later, etc. makes any difference. Like is there a "window of opportunity" or "sensitive period" where EC'ing can be applied more successfully?
Absolutely.

And as for the APA's stance on sphincter control, was research even ever conducted by them or anyone else in this regard?
From what I've read the APA doesn't have any research in nthis regard. It's just something they've said based on years of looking at diapered babies. It would take some pretty unique/difficut research and willing parents to *truely* discern when control starts to develop.

If you want my two pennies I think the observational research of ECers is more accuate than full time diaperers as far as sphincter control goes.

Mamas, thank you one and all for keeping this a drama free zone! I am so impressed and respectful of the fact that everyone has been able to share opinions, ideas and beliefs without turning this into a drama fest. . . . You guys rock! :thumbsup:

EC: Also known as excellent Communicators ;) Honestly, I've never seen an EC thread turn nasty. Hmmmm. :p

lunabelle
03-09-2008, 07:41 PM
Unfortunately I don't have time to read all 4 pages of replies but I still wanted to add my :2cents:.

I think EC can be misunderstood by some and perhaps practiced the wrong way. I can never imagine sitting my LO on the potty for 20 mins.. Honestly, even if he wanted to sit there for that long, I do have other things to do, lol. If someone is trying to force their LO to go on the potty, they are missing the communication in elimination communication. If I sit my little guy on the potty and he signals "no" right away by arching or fussing, we just get up and put his diaper back on and if he pees in his diaper, big deal.

I can see how someone can get caught up in wanting to be "successful" at ECing and get stressed out about wet diapers and potty strikes etc. but mama's have to remember that it's about learning to understand what your LO wants to do.

Practicing EC the way you have described would be like forcing your LO to bf when they are not hungry even though they are clearly arching away from the breast. Most mamas can tell quite easily when their LO wants to nurse so they just do it. EC is the same. Recognize when they have to go and give them the opportunity.

lindsayjean
03-09-2008, 08:53 PM
Unfortunately I don't have time to read all 4 pages of replies but I still wanted to add my :2cents:.

I think EC can be misunderstood by some and perhaps practiced the wrong way. I can never imagine sitting my LO on the potty for 20 mins.. Honestly, even if he wanted to sit there for that long, I do have other things to do, lol. If someone is trying to force their LO to go on the potty, they are missing the communication in elimination communication. If I sit my little guy on the potty and he signals "no" right away by arching or fussing, we just get up and put his diaper back on and if he pees in his diaper, big deal.

I can see how someone can get caught up in wanting to be "successful" at ECing and get stressed out about wet diapers and potty strikes etc. but mama's have to remember that it's about learning to understand what your LO wants to do.

Practicing EC the way you have described would be like forcing your LO to bf when they are not hungry even though they are clearly arching away from the breast. Most mamas can tell quite easily when their LO wants to nurse so they just do it. EC is the same. Recognize when they have to go and give them the opportunity.
:thumbsup: Right on!! You said it perfectly mama!! When I first started (look at me saying it like I've been doing this longer than a month and a half :giggle: ) I got a little frustrated after a SUPER good week and then a not so good one. I felt myself EXPECTING her to go more on the potty... probably so I could prove to others I wasn't a looney. Then I realized that DD can SENSE this and it makes her NOT want to communicate w/ me about this. Soooo... deep breathe... who CARES. Honestly, I'm thrilled every time she goes in the potty, but a miss is NO BIG DEAL. It just is one more opportunity to learn more about her signals and timing of when she goes IMO. I'm sure DD will be PLed earlier than if we didn't EC, but if she's not... that's okay too. Honestly, I don't think EC is much work at all (I don't have to wipe smashed poop off her butt- that rocks!) and I think it's soooo cute to see my little cutie using the potty by herself. But yeah, EC works as long as it's done in w/ the right attitude and as long as it's child focused.

youmb00
03-09-2008, 10:34 PM
I'd NEVER keep my dd on the potty against her will for any length of time. in fact, our average time spent on the potty is about 1 min-3 min for poop. I guess it's more natural and easier than it sounds once you actually do it. I'd suggest maybe getting one of the EC books from the library and reading it? they have a very good summary of what it really means to EC.

It's NEVER about PLing or catching everything, or forcing your LO to do anything. I see it sort of like BFing. You just know when your LO is hungry and you'd do something about it without even thinking.

About APA's findings, there never actually were any research done. I forget the name of the person who decided babies aren't ready to be potty trained until they can pull their pants down, sit down on the toilet, etc etc but that's a very old theory based on wrong assumptions. again, I'm not the expert and I'm so bad at citing the sources so I'd have to recommend the books again.

I think it's great you are actually doubting whether EC is good or bad for your LO. I don't think anyone should just go with the flow, every decision for your LO should be thought out.

I was very taken aback when I first heard of EC, but the more I learn about it, it made sense to me. When I first gave it a try, my dd responded so positively, I couldn't not EC-it seemed cruel/lazy to let her pee in the diaper.

Hope you find what works for you!

DivineNature
03-09-2008, 11:29 PM
This is an incredibly informative thread! Ya'll make me wanna try it. Although, it seems I may have missed the opportunity...

I used to confuse the moms who say "my baby was potty trained at a year" with ECing. I always thought, the baby isn't PT the mom is! Now I think I had it half right. I also thought it was a bit bonkers. Well, not for me. :hide: Now I am intrigued.

sisterof10
03-10-2008, 01:20 AM
I remember the first time I heard of EC, I thought it was completely absurd! Then I PT'd my daughter, and at first she did not want to go poo in the toilet, she'd tell me that poo goes in diapers. I realized that I had in fact trained her very well -- to use diapers as a toilet.

So I started researching, thinking that there must be a better way. That's when I really found out about EC. I missed out on my oldest, but we've been EC'ing since then.

And it is like a PP said, that it is all about the kiddo communicating his needs to you and you responding to him. If you use the same cue every time, then they will use that same cue to let you know they need to go.

My LO uses a different cue for poo and pee, and he's nowhere near a year old yet. His face lights up when he goes in his designated sink. He watches the poo come out of his bottom, and then looks down in the sink at it, and then makes the poo cue noise again. (possibly tmi, sorry about that ;) )

Yes, they are babies. Yes, they are incredibly smart. And yes, they really, really want to communicate with you. :)

5browns
03-10-2008, 01:44 AM
[QUOTE=Khourtniey;2992636]I could do EC all day long with my youngest but it wouldnt work. His sphincter is broken.. He literally urinates all day long. The pressure in his bladder is extremely high. His bladder spasms constantly and he constantly leaks pee out. If I attempted EC with him it would be pointless. He has no "cues". So what do I do? I drug him to calm his bladder and then get to stick a cathether into him every couple hours around the clock to help him urinate. The meds stop his bladder from spasming, thus stopping him from peeing. Oh and his bladder is only about 1/6 the size it should be... Where is the fun in EC with all of this?

FWIW I believe that most babies CAN control the sphincter to a certain extent.. Of course as they mature so does the control. This is from constant urodynamic studies. /QUOTE]


I don't know if you'll see this or not, but I just wanted you to know that you're not alone with what you're dealing with. :goodvibes: My daughter is 8 and is still on ditropan to help the muscles spasms (but she still has lots of accidents both day and night) and she battles bladder/kidney infections often (today, as a matter of fact). She has had all the fun testing (VCUG etc.) to check for reflux, but didn't find a reason for her problems. We are still trying everything we know to help her. They tell me she will probably grow out of it, so there IS light at the end of the tunnel for us.

Nicki
03-10-2008, 01:53 AM
This is an incredibly informative thread! Ya'll make me wanna try it. Although, it seems I may have missed the opportunity...

I used to confuse the moms who say "my baby was potty trained at a year" with ECing. I always thought, the baby isn't PT the mom is! Now I think I had it half right. I also thought it was a bit bonkers. Well, not for me. :hide: Now I am intrigued.

Same here...very intrigued!

robinandnick
03-10-2008, 06:56 AM
I haven't read all pps either but I wanted to add my experience. I started EC with my DS at 10 months. He didn't give clear cues at that time but he liked sitting on his little potty next to mommy or daddy and he'd go to the bathroom so we went with it. When he learned to walk around 11 months he didn't want to sit on the potty so we didn't force it. A few weeks later he decided he was ready to sit again so we got back into it.

Now, along comes my dd. From day one she gave clear cues that she was going to soil her diaper so I began putting her on a padded potty seat over the toilet and she has been going regularly every day ever since. She actually holds it and will poopy every morning consistently. I used to think EC was a little crazy myself but now that my DD is clearly giving me cues I think it's great. She fusses when she needs to go and when I put her on, she looks relieved. She clearly wants to do it.

pixiepunk
03-10-2008, 01:56 PM
I think it bears repeating that a bunch of crazy, crunchy western moms didn't just make this up one day. This is how many MANY societies take care of their babies elimination needs. That's right - some cultures don't use diapers. Ever. Period. So, are all of these babies specially gifted or what? Could it be that babies have a more instinctual desire to not soil themselves than we or the APA gives them credit for?



this is it in a nutshell. this is not something new - it's the way things have been for thousands of years. from a sociological/anthropological perspective, diapering doesn't make a whole lotta sense for a lot of reasons.

i see EC'ing a lot like i see breastfeeding. in a culture where everyone does it, and people have been around it their whole lives, there are very few people who ever have insurmountable problems because they have the support and understanding of everyone around them and it's just what you do. and when there's no alternative, you just do what you need to do. same with EC. i think a lot of mamas who are trying to figure out EC in the west are starting out totally in the dark. and so it's hard for them sometimes to understand what their child's cues are, to understand how it's done, to see "potty strikes" as normal developmental patterns, etc. in a society where EC is just how things are done, those things aren't mysteries anymore. chances are you've pottied other LO's long before you ever have your own. and if you do have a question, you don't have to look very far for an answer.

Are there some kids who are "better" at EC than others? I don't really think so. Any child (who doesn't have some clinically diagnosed physical impediment) can be EC'd. In fact, on another board i'm on, there are some special needs kids who are being EC'd. And twins. Are some people better at communicating in general than others? Well, of course! I mean, my daughter started using signs with us at like 6 months old. DS was probably at least 9 months before he signed. So, yes, some kids are better at communicating their need to eliminate. And some parents are better about picking up on their child's cues. One of the most fascinating things i ever read was about a woman who was introduced to EC by a friend of hers from India. They were just sitting around together, IIRC, and the Indian friend noticed a cue in friend's baby. So she offered to potty the baby. The mom thought she was crazy. But sure enough, baby needed to go and had his first pee catch moments later. Baby was cuing, mama didn't know it. Friend, who didn't know baby nearly as well as mama, but who had grown up in a culture of EC, recognized a cue.

If you do some reading on EC, not just on message boards - which are sometimes largely focused on people who are having troubles and needing help, which can skew your perspective - you will learn that there are most definitely "windows of receptivity" when it is easier to begin (if you don't begin at birth). I started on the late side with both of my kids, and did so when it was clear they were receptive to the idea. It's different for every child, though there are some typical age windows that tend to be better (or more difficult) times to introduce EC.

As for whether a child really responds to the auditory cues - to some extent i guess you just have to witness it to believe it. But really it's a pretty basic Pavlovian response at its deepest. Dog hears bell, begins to salivate. Baby hears "pssssss" begins to pee. They learn to associate the sound with the act of relaxing their bladder/bowels and then if they have anything to release, it's released on cue. My DS is 2.5 and still sometimes makes that noise on his own when he's trying to relax and pee while he's on the potty, and for a long time if i knew he had to pee (like 10 seconds earlier he was grabbing his penis and hopping from foot to foot) i would make the sound to help him relax and redirect him, since sometimes bathrooms (especially unfamiliar ones) were too exciting/distracting and he had a hard time relaxing enough to go. sorta like stage fright LOL. it's a pretty simple learned response, really.

TaivensMama
03-11-2008, 02:10 AM
I have not read any other responses, but I am in no way trying to push Skye, and I DO NOT hold her over the toliet for more than a minute or two, because that means she doesn't need to go. She also went through a week strike, she just flat out refused to go and I didn't push the issue. a lot of babies cry while they poop because it is actually painful with gas at a newborn stage, they would cry wether they had a diaper on or were being held over the toliet and that is what Skye did as a newborn...it was not out of not wanting to go over the toliet, the gas was the cause for the cries and she was more than happy to get it out and not be sitting in it.

As for controlling the sphincter, it is very evident my kids both had control over theirs FAR before reasearch has proven but they were just exposed to knowing what it was to control it far before the "average" child. but it is obviously possible with all the babies that EC. I have done it with Skye from the time she was 4days old and she would litterally cue me that she needed to poo until I took her and sometimes I was unable to do it right that second so she would coninute to cue me and continue to hold it as a newborn. I intend on trying ECing with my next baby as well. I am curious to see if He will be as responsive to it as much as his sister is. But I honestly won't know until he arrives!

It is a very valid question for those I guess you would say trying to force the issue or are not in tune with their babies cues yet so they end up going about it in a way that is not in the best interset of the baby. But as long as you are communicating with your baby NOT trying to Train them as infants I am all for ECing....good for you for trying to understand a little more where we are coming from

TaivensMama
03-11-2008, 02:36 AM
This is an incredibly informative thread! Ya'll make me wanna try it. Although, it seems I may have missed the opportunity...

I used to confuse the moms who say "my baby was potty trained at a year" with ECing. I always thought, the baby isn't PT the mom is! Now I think I had it half right. I also thought it was a bit bonkers. Well, not for me. :hide: Now I am intrigued.

I think that people saying the parents are the ones trained had a great response I once read not too long ago....it went something like yah the darn baby also has me trained to feed him when he is hungry, rock him to sleep when he's tired, play with him when he is bored etc.....I think people look too far into it as the mother trying to TRAIN the child when it is actually the other way around, the baby is training the mother just like they do in all other areas. Just like animals don't talk but they may hover by the door, make some sort of vocalization like a bark or meow if they need something like to go potty, need food or water ... my cat will come to us and meow if her litter needs to be changed or if she is out of water or food...she never meows at us unless she is in need of something from us. So it is very similar with babies and learning their cues for their different needs. Just trying to get some more understanding out there on how the whole communication aspect of ECing works....:goodvibes:

blossomgoat
03-11-2008, 11:11 AM
I can chime in.

We started EC only part time when DD was 5 weeks old. We never held her on the potty for long periods and never worried about catching. We held her over the pot at most 30 seconds to check her and now that she's able to sit on the potty, she only sits as long as she wants to and then says "All Done!" and is off.

FOr us, the point behind EC wasn't to catch every poo and pee and eliminate the diaper. It was to allow DD to grow up knowing what the potty was for and feeling comfortable with it. another point was to help her be dry longer if we could get her to pee at every diaper change. It's only a nice perk that that we have fewer diapers to wash.

I think we were successful because she is very aware of what the toilet is for and uses it multiple times a day. That said, she probably uses her diapers more than her potty, and we're okay with that.

lguse
03-11-2008, 03:22 PM
Thought I'd jump in here too...

Similar to a pp, I thought that catching a pee would be hard and based purely on luck in the beginning. Boy was I surprised when dd showed, at 3 weeks (when we started ec'ing), that she knew exactly what to do when I pottied her. It' was and still is really amazing to me. And I've not had one person who has seen her pottying doubt that she knows exactly what's going on (even if they do still think I'm nuts ;-).

As another pp said, you really just have to see it...I've been blown away.

And now that I know that she's aware of her elimination, the thought of letting her sit in her waste is sickening (that is not meant at all to be a judgment of non-ec'ers).

I would recommend that anyone interested give it a shot. You just might get hooked...

gracenglory75
03-11-2008, 05:58 PM
If DD gets upset on the potty, I take her right off. I do not want to force the issue. But usually, she just sits there and babbles and smiles away. I also don't keep her on longer than 10 minutes, 5 minutes average. Even if she seems content, it just seems to long and forced that way to me. I mostly take her when I can catch it. If I can't, oh well! No stressing it at all!

pixiepunk
03-13-2008, 10:23 AM
i wanted to add something to this discussion that i failed to mention earlier. and that's the idea that teaching your child to eliminate in the potty is somehow all that different than what most people do - teach their child to eliminate in a diaper.

most people think of the diaper as an escape from teaching their child about eliminating. but by putting that diaper on your child and making them pee and poo in it, you are in fact teaching them that the diaper is where you want them to eliminate. some kids have an easy transition when one day you say "ok, i'm changing the rules, now you have to eliminate somewhere else." and, as i'm sure we've all read many, many times, some kids do not take to that change of rules very well at all.

when you put it in that perspective - the perspective that *everyone* is teaching their child to eliminate someplace - then it's really just a choice of venue, which puts EC in a very different light, IMO.

DivineNature
03-13-2008, 12:03 PM
I think that people saying the parents are the ones trained had a great response I once read not too long ago....it went something like yah the darn baby also has me trained to feed him when he is hungry, rock him to sleep when he's tired, play with him when he is bored etc.....I think people look too far into it as the mother trying to TRAIN the child when it is actually the other way around, the baby is training the mother just like they do in all other areas. Just like animals don't talk but they may hover by the door, make some sort of vocalization like a bark or meow if they need something like to go potty, need food or water ... my cat will come to us and meow if her litter needs to be changed or if she is out of water or food...she never meows at us unless she is in need of something from us. So it is very similar with babies and learning their cues for their different needs. Just trying to get some more understanding out there on how the whole communication aspect of ECing works....:goodvibes:

That makes sooo much sense!

You all have explained EC so well. Thanks for helping us to understand!

mayrain
03-14-2008, 11:15 PM
i wanted to add something to this discussion that i failed to mention earlier. and that's the idea that teaching your child to eliminate in the potty is somehow all that different than what most people do - teach their child to eliminate in a diaper.

most people think of the diaper as an escape from teaching their child about eliminating. but by putting that diaper on your child and making them pee and poo in it, you are in fact teaching them that the diaper is where you want them to eliminate. some kids have an easy transition when one day you say "ok, i'm changing the rules, now you have to eliminate somewhere else." and, as i'm sure we've all read many, many times, some kids do not take to that change of rules very well at all.

when you put it in that perspective - the perspective that *everyone* is teaching their child to eliminate someplace - then it's really just a choice of venue, which puts EC in a very different light, IMO.

well said:thumbsup: i also agree with the pp who said ec'ing is a lot like breastfeeding....our little ones give us cues that we tune into from early on to let us know when they are hungry - sometimes we miss them, sometimes it isn't convenient and sometimes we offer just in case, especially when they are little wee ones(and of course, sometimes there are nursing strikes, biting, etc.). it has alot to do with communication:goodvibes:

Leanne
03-15-2008, 02:13 PM
This is all pretty amazing to me. I've got friends who went to China last year and reported that the babies didn't wear diapers. I was so excited and was like, "So they potty trained them as infants?" "No," came the reply, "the children just squatted down and went anywhere. In a corner of the room or on the stairs--nobody cared, and nobody cleaned up. It's just part of life for them." I was a little disappointed.

The thought occurred to me while reading all these posts: Whoever said that babies can't control their potty-going muscles has also said that babies don't feel the pain of circumcision. Yeahhhhh.

I have a question about all this. Because my 10 month old doesn't nurse on a schedule, she doesn't wet on a schedule. And I can't tell that she has cues at all (though I'm sure I could learn them), so do I just set her on the potty occasionally, hoping to catch a pee, and praise her a lot so she gets the idea that's where it's supposed to go? She does "tell" me after she's pooped. She'll crawl over to me, put her arms up and fuss a little. But that's after she's done.

Another question. I have a 5 year old and a 3 year old. There is constant chaos and lots of noise. And we homeschool, so it's not like I can "get rid" of them for a few hours a day. With all that goes on, and with thinking about the next meal and if I changed the wash and whether the arguments are getting out of hand or if they're still mild, and how much dust is collecting on the piano keys and good grief--I've had to pee for 4 hours, it's lunch time and I'm still in my pj's.....how in the world and I supposed to pay attention to cues?

lindsayjean
03-15-2008, 02:20 PM
This is all pretty amazing to me. I've got friends who went to China last year and reported that the babies didn't wear diapers. I was so excited and was like, "So they potty trained them as infants?" "No," came the reply, "the children just squatted down and went anywhere. In a corner of the room or on the stairs--nobody cared, and nobody cleaned up. It's just part of life for them." I was a little disappointed.

The thought occurred to me while reading all these posts: Whoever said that babies can't control their potty-going muscles has also said that babies don't feel the pain of circumcision. Yeahhhhh.

I have a question about all this. Because my 10 month old doesn't nurse on a schedule, she doesn't wet on a schedule. And I can't tell that she has cues at all (though I'm sure I could learn them), so do I just set her on the potty occasionally, hoping to catch a pee, and praise her a lot so she gets the idea that's where it's supposed to go? She does "tell" me after she's pooped. She'll crawl over to me, put her arms up and fuss a little. But that's after she's done.

Another question. I have a 5 year old and a 3 year old. There is constant chaos and lots of noise. And we homeschool, so it's not like I can "get rid" of them for a few hours a day. With all that goes on, and with thinking about the next meal and if I changed the wash and whether the arguments are getting out of hand or if they're still mild, and how much dust is collecting on the piano keys and good grief--I've had to pee for 4 hours, it's lunch time and I'm still in my pj's.....how in the world and I supposed to pay attention to cues?

Honestly, my DD doesn't cue very obviously and we started at 11 months by me just setting her on the potty during times when she's likely to go... like right upon waking up in the morning or from naps. I would cue her (pssssss and sign "toilet") while she went. We did this for a while and now when I set her on the potty and cue her she will go if she has to or reach for me to get off if she doesn't have to. And she holds it until I put her there. She doesn't really ASK for the potty, but when I put her there every hour to 2 hours she usually will go.

I can imagine it would be harder to pay attention w/ chaos of older kids. Maybe get the older kids involved in the fun of ECing, have the help you "watch" for signs?

kristini2
03-16-2008, 12:41 PM
I wonder though how much cause and effect is really being understood by the infant? I get that you look for a cue like a grunt, face, posture, etc....and then get them to the potty. But is there a conscious connection between the two things being made on the part of the infant?

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies, but wanted to say that yes, I think my dd has made a connection. We only part-time EC. I basically take her after she wakes in the morning, after naps, and whenever I go to change her and find her diaper is dry. 9 times out of 10 as soon as I put her on the potty, sign "potty" and tell her to "go potty", she will go. I don't leave her there more than a minute at the very most. Generally either she goes right away or she doesn't need to go. When she doesn't need to go, she'll usually let me know that too by trying to grab me at which point I just pick her back up. I'll be back later to read the rest of the thread.

ivy
03-16-2008, 07:56 PM
We do ECing. Started by accident at 3.5months. We do cloth and i did not want to wash a poo diaper so i put her hiney on the potty. She loved it has refused to poo in her diaper ever since. I told my friend what i did and she told me i was doing EC so i looked it up. I could not figure out her cues so i figured out how often she went and set a timer. Worked like a charm.
I started from the beginning asking her if she was done then taking her off the potty. Now i ask her and if she is not done she will not reach for me. Which is good because one night she was going ( i was tired 2AM potty break) I asked her if she was done over and over and over again because she would not get off. Good thing because she had to poo and she knew it. She will hold her poo leave a smear in her diaper but hold it until she is put on the pot.
Still don't know her pee cues unless she makes a fuss noise (she only says mama and dada right now) or when she crawls and hits the potty and smiles.
I don't have to make any sounds any more for her to go just give her the potty sign and tell her to potty. Now she wears panties around the house and diapers when we are not home or sleeping. She fusses when she has to put her diaper on.
My husband thought i was crazy at first. But our daughter loves to use the potty and he takes her to. We think it is great that she will be day potty learned before 12months.

DivineNature
03-16-2008, 11:17 PM
Okay, I just had a thought to add. With all my 3 days of EC wisdom. LOL

My ds does fuss sometimes when I put him on the potty, but he has melt-downs when I lay him on his back to change his diaper. A parent would never question continuing to change diapers even though it causes the baby to cry. So, it is kinda funny that it would be a reason to stop EC. Does that make any sense? I think a lot of babies/toddlers just don't want to stop what they are doing to take care of business. :giggle: I've found that giving him a cheerio will make him happier during his potty break.

ivy
03-17-2008, 06:00 AM
Rowan gets fussy on the potty if she does not have to go or is bored. So i give her a toy or have her watch her fav show word world and if that does not fix it she holds her hands up to get off. She also fusses sometimes if her stool is harder than she likes it.
She hates to put her diaper back on which is why i have to use trainers during the day and diapers for outings and sleeping.

pixiepunk
03-17-2008, 11:29 AM
Leanne - do you babywear? i find that it's a lot easier to pick up on cues when the baby is right there on you. and, for example, in african tribes where babies are worn pretty much all the time and diapers aren't used, the mama learns very early on how to tell when baby is about to go. babywearing and EC compliment each other very well, especially when older kids and other aspects of life get distracting. because chances are you won't notice your baby's subtle cues if she's laying in a bouncy seat on the other side of the room, kwim?

also something important to keep in mind is that the idea isn't to stress about catching every pee. especially in a culture like ours where we have the luxury to use diapers as a back-up so we don't feel the pressure of a potential mess if we miss a cue. and stress is not what you want to convey to your child, you need to be calm and relaxed when you offer the potty.

keeping a baby coverless while you're at home will give you a much better concept of how frequently your child is going, and what cues she is giving before she goes. for example, i was stunned to discover when i started paying attention to it that i could almost set the clock to DS's pee schedule. seriously, it was amazing. and prior to that i wouldn't have thought he peed on any kind of schedule at all. i just wasn't paying attention. but keeping him physically on me in a sling, and coverless, so i noticed the second he would pee made me realize what a distinct pattern he had. so i went with trying to catch mostly based on timing because it was so predictable i didn't need cues very often to tell me - and once he knew what the potty was for and he preferred to go there, even if he might not have actually peed in his diaper for 5 or 10 minutes, he was able to let go and pee when i put him on the potty.

a_marines_wife03
03-17-2008, 12:16 PM
Iv read alot of this link but not all of it Im short on time at the moment. But I have never forced MY DD to sit on the potty if she wants off i let her off. some times we will take a quick min at the sink and some times she will go in the sink i guess she just doesent want to sit on the potty at that moment but liked squating in the sink. I dont believe that they cant control the muscle My DD shue as heck can Iv seen her do it. Ill hold her over the sink or potty and she will watch her self pee for a sec then stop it look up and grin then pee a little more stop it and grin at me again and if she starts to go before i realize she needs to I can tell her try to wate and she will usually stop her pee not for verry long but most of the time just long enough for me to get her over the sink or potty. We usually catch her morning pooh she usually sits there for about 5 min but she is happy to be there she takes a toy or a book and sits and looks at the pictures or i read or we play with a toy mutch like some adults do when they take a magazine to the bathroom when they have to pooh. DD doesent like diapers latley she crys just about every time i put one on her to change it. but she lets me put training panties on her with out a fuss or iv just been lettin her crawl around bare bum when its warm out ya iv got to clean up a few messes but what mom hasent done that when potty training a 2 year old. It took my SIL 3 years to get my Niece potty trained My DD already does as good as my niece was doing when she was 3. i dont push her and i dont stress about the misses No one is perfect but hay even if we only get one pee a day and one pooh a week im thrilled because those were times when we were insink with eatch other She let me know she needed to go and i let her know where it was ok to go.

wyldblueangel
03-17-2008, 05:43 PM
I haven't finished reading yet, but I just had an aaa haa moment! When my ds was a few months old he would always put up a fuss so we would change him then he'd go #2. We would joke about this and say he didn't like going poo in a wet diaper. Now, knowing about ECing, I realized I missed his signs! We are currently working on pl, but only really with #2, I'd be doing more but he's so active and I'm on bedrest.

I plan on starting early with ds2, hopefully he can help ds1 get it down!!

ari's_mommy
03-18-2008, 09:39 PM
I'm not sure if the babies have conscious thoughts about poop...it couldn't be a "oh! I have to poo...I'll just wait for mom to tell me I can go." though that would be nice!! For us it's just another way to be connected. I know when my LO needs to go (when I'm on...we don't EC all the time) the same way I know when she's hungry. I think at some level you begin to sense your LO's needs. Part of communicating in this way with your LO is listening?sensing to what they need and providing it. If someone is letting their child cry while ECing then I don't think they're listening very well. In our case if Ari cries (and it's not an...oh I'm pooping cry) then I take her off the potty. She doesn't want to EC right now and I respect that. I think with the cueing, the infants begin to understand the cue earlier then you'd think...it's all about repetition and they associate the sound/word with the position. By 4 or 5 months they can totally have it down. Whether or not they can actually control or hold it for very long...I don't know. My LO is 4 months and everytime I put her on the potty she bears down whether or not she has to go. I do think that mommas need to question their actions more though. Give thought to the things that you're doing...don't just do them because it's what you've always done or it's what everyone else is doing. And don't do it just because it may be controversal. Sorry if this was ranty!

ivy
03-19-2008, 06:58 AM
My daughter started taking herself to the potty at 6.5 months. She crawls over to it and hits it. I put her on and she pees/poos. She does hold her poo because back in December we were out of town (she was 5months). She did not give cues then. She put a smear in her diaper i changed it but no potty around, when we got to the hotel i changed it again and another smear. I put her on the potty and immediately she went bigtime. Another example we were at my husbands school at night picking up some papers. She gave me the "look and noise" there was no bathroom (they lock them at night) there so i had to take her outside and she went out there at 7months.
I do think they hold it. Rowan does not hold urine as well as she does stool. But she does hold it until she get to a potty. She has not pooed in her diaper since the week before thanksgiving. And i am not always the most consistent with the potty she just hates poo on her bum.

KaliShanti
03-21-2008, 08:23 AM
I offer Tor (almost 11 months) the potty at diaper changes and if I see his cues. If he resists the potty, no biggie, we just put the dipe on and leave. If he sits on it we'll stay til he is ready to get off. He usually eliminates, but sometimes he like to just read a book or play with a toy (or himself! hahha). I'm gentle about it.

sdevonh
03-21-2008, 02:41 PM
I haven't read any of the other responses, so please excuse me if what I say is redundant. When I first heard about EC and started researching it, one of the things that I heard stressed over and over was to not make it a stressful or negative experience for your baby. As a result, when I started putting DD on the potty (at four months old), I always made sure to keep it a positive and upbeat experience. I never forced her and sometimes, she did not want to sit on the potty, so those were occasions when I removed her and we quickly moved on to another activity. I was one of the people who posted in the past about DD not staying on the potty now that she has started walking. It was a brief phase that only lasted for a couple of days, thank goodness. She is now fourteen months old and actually enjoys potty time. We sit together and read books and sing songs. It's a consistent period of time that we get to spend face-to-face, and I know that we have both come to depend on it. I think that any "good thing" can be abused whether intentionally or unintentionally. And I do not doubt that there are parents out there that begin ECing for the wrong reasons. However, I have not encountered any in my time in this forum or elsewhere.
As for the issue of whether or not children have sphincter control at this age, I can assure you that they do. One of the factors that led me to start ECing was when I began going back to work part time. My mother would watch my, then three month old daughter. DD would hold her BM's in all day and wait until she was in my arms before she started to grunt. This would happen consistently, no matter what time of day I came to pick her up. Within a couple months of beginning EC, she did 95% of her poops in the potty. She does not wet her diaper if we go out to run errands. She will hold her urine up to two hours at a time and go pee on the potty as soon as we get home. (I'm still learning how to navigate public restrooms with her). Thanks for your intelligent and curious questions. I hope that you can experience EC someday, as well!
ETA: Within the past couple weeks, DD has begun to put her Elmo and teddies on the potty. She makes a "hissss" sound and then takes them off and pats their bottoms! Today she did it with one of her Little People. Too cute!!!

shastakat
03-21-2008, 07:03 PM
I don't EC, I don't know much about it. But I think it's interesting. And I say kudos to those moms who have the patience to do it! :)

cathysizer
03-26-2008, 03:13 PM
I think it really DOES depend on the child.

I have a son. He's *never* given a pee pee cue, and only infrequently given me poop cues. I never tried ECing with him. he's almost 2 1/2, I wonder if he'll *ever* potty train. I can't even get him to like the potty seat real well.

My friend's daughter I kept at eight weeks of age. She literally would scream BEFORE she wet. She caught me several times on the changing table before I figured it out. I would think "oh, you're crying because you're wet" and I had to learn to wait a few seconds/minute for her to pee first. I mentioned this to her mom and she was aware of it and said she forgot to warn me (-: That child could NOT STAND to be wet for even a second. Even at 1 1/2 years of age her daughter would go get diapers and want to go potty. She's always been real in tune with her own body that little girl.

I admire the goal of synchronizing receptive and expressive cues, and I appreciate that the final goal is not the actual pee/poo in the potty, but the relationship and communication that is developed. But before the child is able to express this need appropriately, isn't there a lot of guessing and assuming? Also, with the sound cues...are they in place to start to associate the location with the action? It seems to me that very young infants would have a very difficult time making this association?

Indianamom*2
03-26-2008, 10:58 PM
We didnt EC and right now we are PLing and I am really surprised by how much I have learned about DD that I didnt realize before.

Like she she pees, she stops everything that she is doing and just stands/ sits there until she is done. She pees on average about every 20mins every other pee is a heavier pee (unless she has been holding it for too long or she has drank/nursed a ton prior) so I know when I can put panties on or when we need a trainer.
Before now, I never knew that she did that when she peed.

I havent caught a poop yet but I know that I will discover her little thing that she does when she is pooping.

When she needs to go she gets a look in her eyes like she is about to cry and she will say Pee Pee or Potty and then we go.

Im still in the proccess of learning her cues and she is still learning to communicate with me when she needs to go.

tammyalindley
03-27-2008, 07:23 AM
I think you are right, in that every child is different, learns at a different pace, uses different methods, parents cue differently, etc. But I think all children are "ready" I also thinkit's a great thing to do. I do it, but I do it only when I know she's peeing or pooping. If I dont catch it, I change a diaper or undies. I dont let her sit on the potty long at all. I coach her. I will do the whole grunt thing and "aaahhh" and I turn the water on, etc. For the most part, they work. She is only 4 months old, so I dont know anything more than that. I do think that all children should be trained early to know that pee and poop belong in the potty, not in their clothes. I also know in her little 4 months of life that she has certain cues when she's going and sometimes she doesnt cue at all, she just goes. I catch some, some I dont. I dont think I'm less in touch with her and the process. I just think that's the way it is with EVERY child. You try and cue, and you try and catch and if you dont, no big deal. I think the child then starts to learn that poo and pee belong in the potty and they start to emulate how to be like big people earlier than those not EC'ing, because they've been repititiously learning that pee and poop is what they do in their diapers. I always make it fun and that goes for any teaching I do. One rule for teaching ANYONE....is to always stop before THEY stop. If you stop after they are upset, mad, sad...then you've not been effective in training. Glen Doman stresses that in his "teach your child to......" series. It is true. Be happy, show them how, be patient, expect imperfection, dont judge, dont test, just train, show and teach. With these qualities EVERY child can effectively learn an alternative route to wasting in their diapers. Will it happen overnight? No. Will it be perfect? Never. Will they goof/fall back, etc? Most definitely! Will you catch every one? Never. Will you be able to cue when they are going? Not always. Will you know when they are ready? EVERY child is ready to learn!

drock
03-28-2008, 08:23 PM
I'm not ECing currently - but I will try. I think your post is kind of silly tho. Not all infants like BFing...my son cried at the beginning...but I persisted bc it was good for him. As parents, our children are going to not like alot of things we want them to do. And they may cry or give cues they are not ready. I wouldn't hold my infant on the toilet for 20 mins. BUT, I'm not going to give up just bc he cries either. My son cries when I'm not holding him 24/7 (even in a sling)...but I can't and won't do that so whats a mom to do?

I think most infants that are safe and secure will STILL cry/fuss over new things or changes to their routines...

masonsmama
03-28-2008, 08:49 PM
I certainly didn't intend for my post to be "silly". I have learned SO much by what all these mamas have generously shared. I still don't feel that EC is a choice I will make at this time, but that doesn't mean this thread hasn't been beneficial to me. Of COURSE I know that children will sometimes protest things they need to do. But when I made this post, it was after reading thread after thread talking about kids not wanting to sit on the potty, sitting there for 20+ minutes, moms who were dead set on making this work no matter what, etc. It just got me thinking that people might be going at this in a forceful, or parent-centered way. That's why I posted, to gain clarification, which all of these posts have certainly given me. I don't think it is silly to ask questions. If your child is crying because they are new to nursing, and are still figuring it out that's one thing...and of course you keep trying to nurse.....if your child is crying because they don't want to eat, and you keep shoving the food down their throat, that's another thing entirely, kwim? That's why I was asking for clarification.

I'm not ECing currently - but I will try. I think your post is kind of silly tho. Not all infants like BFing...my son cried at the beginning...but I persisted bc it was good for him. As parents, our children are going to not like alot of things we want them to do. And they may cry or give cues they are not ready. I wouldn't hold my infant on the toilet for 20 mins. BUT, I'm not going to give up just bc he cries either. My son cries when I'm not holding him 24/7 (even in a sling)...but I can't and won't do that so whats a mom to do?

I think most infants that are safe and secure will STILL cry/fuss over new things or changes to their routines...

trainupachild
04-01-2008, 07:04 AM
The goal in infant care in general is to be in tune with your child. They say that the act of breastfeeding teaches women how to be good mothers, for the simple reason that you feed on demand and learn baby's cues for hunger, sleepy, etc. ECing is another great way to "learn how to be a good mother" because you are tuning in to your lo's needs and is an extension of knowing when they are tired, hungry, etc, to know when they need to pee/poop. Just like with a newborn, parents can guess when they infant cries what he is crying about, whether they are hungry or uncomfortable, and eventually they learn to differentiate between different hunger cues, sleepy cues, restless cues, and it's the same with EC cues. You get better at it over time, and it's all about you reading the baby and getting to the point where you just know what the baby needs, just like any other aspect of parenting a baby. It doesn't have anything to do with the infant being trained, or being "ready" for EC like potty training. After all, babies need no training to tell you they are hungry or uncomfortable. This is no different. :goodvibes:

I don't EC (pretty clueless about it) but this post makes so much snse to me! (Sorry to hijack :giggle2: )

goldmama22
04-01-2008, 12:30 PM
OK, I'll be honest - I never did figure out when my dd was cueing (well, for pee anyway - her poop cues were crystal clear). But, she was so darn good at holding it and at going when she had the chance, that it was never an issue. I figured out that she had to pee about half an hour after nursing and an hour after that, and she did a great job. Actually, what happened was at 5.5 months I was just trying to change her diaper as soon as she peed every time, and after a few days she discovered how much she liked being dry and started holding it until the diaper change. After I got peed on 3 times, I started putting her on the potty. So that is how I figured out her schedule, and how I started EC'ing without really meaning to. After the introduction of solids and even more after she self-weaned at 16 months (waaaaah!) she didn't have a schedule, but was very good at holding it and at going. I put her in undies at 18 months and would just take her every 2 hours (or earlier after a Jamba Juice or something like that!), she would only occasionally tell me she needed to go. But then at about 2, when she learned how to pull up and down her pants and underwear and get on and off the toilet all by herself (wanted to be a big girl like sister, forget that little potty chair), she started taking herself all the time. For some reason she just never wanted to tell me, maybe she trusted me to take her and didn't feel the need, but then embraced her independence when she had it.

My favorite thing about EC is that it is really UN-potty training. I saw it as a way to avoid the difficulty of saying to a toddler, who is just at the age where stability, routine, and independence matters most, "here, let's do this totally new thing that you're not very good at." She knew what the potty was for and she naturally developed into being totally potty trained without ever being pushed, bribed, or even transitioned. (My other favorite thing was the benefit for the environment!)

We will try EC'ing baby #3 when s/he arrives this fall, and if it doesn't seem to be working (as in it's stressful for baby or for me), I'll stop and do American potty learning in toddlerhood. But I anticipate that it'll work just fine in terms of just letting baby know that this is a potty, this is what you do with it, and it's here when you need it.

:) Megan