Desperately need help with open adoption (long, sorry!!)....

[ctoth77]

**Let me just start off by saying that there are ALOT of details and different aspects to my story, so some things may not come across right because I haven't shared everything that's happened. Also, I'm pretty stressed and jaded at the moment so things may not sound "nice" but I want to be honest so that I can get some honest feedback.

I am the adoptive mom of ds (26 mos, had him since he was 11 mos) and on the verge of a failed adoption with his half-sibling (15mos, had him since birth). I’m also miraculously pregnant after trying for approx. 6 years!!

About 2 years ago, dh and I decided we were finally in a place to adopt and found a small, private agency in our city. Although we always thought we'd want a semi-open adoption (in our minds this meant the child would know they were adopted and would have the opportunity to meet their b-parents...) the agency we found promotes VERY open adoptions. So although we were leery, we were told how good this was for everyone and basically that it all works itself out. We heard story after story of b-moms & adoptive families having such great relationships and even b-grandparents being like "real" grandparents to the children. So we decided to go for it (even though, looking back, we still did not feel 100% comfortable with it). We got a call about 3 months after we applied and the director asked if we would be willing to consider taking 2 boys: a 9 month old who was in DHS custody and his half-brother who would be born 3 months later. We were just so anxious to have children so we immediately said yes. A few days later we met the b-mom and her parents with a mediator from the agency and thought they were very friendly and fun. There was never really any formal “is this family the right fit for us”, we just all assumed we were going forward with everything. I immediately started getting to know the b-mom (an immature 20 year old…has had a lot of hurts in her life) and started going to dr’s appts. with her and buying stuff for the boys. We also began trying to get her 9 mo. old out of DHS custody. We didn’t realize what we were getting into because the director of the adoption agency led us to believe that he would just be moved to our home and we would adopt him. It ended up taking 2 months before he was moved and another year before his adoption was final. We got him 2 weeks before his brother was born, so we did all we could to bond with him before the baby came. As soon as the baby was born the problems began with the b-grandma….. We had told both her and the b-mom that we would need some time at the beginning to adjust to having 2 kids at once and one being a newborn. I was exhausted from being up with the baby and basically just learning how to be a mom (especially to an 11 mo old). The b-mom came to our home just after we took the baby home, but within 2 – 3 weeks the b-grandma was upset, saying she was afraid we were going to keep the boys from her, etc. We tried to explain that we were just adjusting. Anyway, to try to make the story shorter, I’ll just say that that began an increasingly turbulent relationship with the b-grandma. About every 2 months or so there would be some reason for her to be upset at us (and her getting upset is not a “normal” upset….it’s an explosive, yelling upset). Basically, now I see that most of the things she got upset over were when we had to tell her no about something (such as us not being available for her to come visit on the day she calls to ask, us having plans for after a visit and her being late so then being upset that she didn’t get as much time, her wanting to take the boys out alone, etc.). I am not a very confrontational person anyway, so it has been a very difficult year and a half of dealing with her temper. It’s also hard because, although the b-mom is immature, annoying, irresponsible, etc. I can at least have a decent conversation with her. And when we got into this, we thought we were entering into an agreement with her, not her mom! So I basically feel like we’re stuck in this disrespectful relationship and there’s nothing we can do about it. And to make everything even more complicated….our youngest son is back with the b-mom because the b-father came back into the picture and lied saying he never knew she was pregnant and wanted his son (but then agreed to only have him 2 weekends a month!!). So we’ve been in and out of court for the past 6 months and finally just lost him 2 weeks ago. We are appealing the decision but know that we don’t have much of a chance, and in the mean time the b-mom is not wanting to take responsibility for him (which I do understand because she knew he was being adopted before he was born, so she never really bonded with him). AND in the midst of this I found out I was pregnant!!! It’s just been a very stressful year and yet we are still having problems with the b-grandma (she obviously doesn’t see that we already have a lot of stress without her adding more). We would LIKE to tell her that we don’t want anything to do with her anymore and that we entered this agreement with the b-mom so that’s how it’s gonna be. But because of the uncertainty of our youngest son, we don’t know if she could do anything to keep him from us, even if we won the appeal. So, we feel kind of stuck.

I’m sorry this is so long, but I would love some feedback from both adoptive moms and b-moms. First of all, I feel like we entered this agreement blindly and didn’t really understand what exactly open adoption was, or at least not what our specific b-family’s expectations were. We feel like we wish we could have had a significant amount of time to bond with our children before the b-family was involved (mostly because we feel like they haven’t really been able to let them go….they want to show the boys off to all their family and friends and usually push us to the side while they’re doing it). We also feel like this b-grandma is not respecting us as people and definitely not as the boys’ parents and that she shouldn’t be allowed to treat us the way she has, but what can we do about it? Because of the legal stuff, I don’t know if we can do anything right now, but I just don’t know how I’m going to get through the next several months until everything’s all over!!!

[TestifyToLove]

If this is all in the hands of the courts irt your younger son, then I don't see what power the grandmother has at this point. If the older son's adoption is finalized, then she has no option but to honor and respect your position on how and when she can enter his life. And, given that this is at the appeallate level with the younger son, then it will be the courts and not her who decides what happens with the younger son.

If this were *me*, I would enforce boundaries on G'ma now. I would tell her that your agreement is with bmom and not her. I would not allow any unsupervised contact, nothing outside of my convenience and at locations I choose...if even that.

Its not going to stop this battle for your younger son and its not going to impact a finalized adoption on your older son. It sounds like it won't make her any worse than she is. And, it will give your family more peace.

It's not even unreasonable to decide that for the emotional health of your family right now ALL contact needs to be written for now.

It is okay to exert your parental authority and it doesn't mean you have to shut them all out forever.

Does bmom understand that if she hasn't fixed what caused her to lose her first child to the state, they can and will remove this child if she regains custody and if she fails to get him back, they will give y'all first choice to have him back?

I'm so sorry you are going through this. A good adoption agency should have provided you mediation and boundaries from the get-go. They should have done their paperwork so overturning an adoption was not possible.

[cravnp99]

wow... no advice here.. just :hugs: we'll keep you in our prayers. :goodvibes:

[Passelofkids]

If this is all in the hands of the courts irt your younger son, then I don't see what power the grandmother has at this point. If the older son's adoption is finalized, then she has no option but to honor and respect your position on how and when she can enter his life. And, given that this is at the appeallate level with the younger son, then it will be the courts and not her who decides what happens with the younger son.

If this were *me*, I would enforce boundaries on G'ma now. I would tell her that your agreement is with bmom and not her. I would not allow any unsupervised contact, nothing outside of my convenience and at locations I choose...if even that.

Its not going to stop this battle for your younger son and its not going to impact a finalized adoption on your older son. It sounds like it won't make her any worse than she is. And, it will give your family more peace.

It's not even unreasonable to decide that for the emotional health of your family right now ALL contact needs to be written for now.

It is okay to exert your parental authority and it doesn't mean you have to shut them all out forever.

Does bmom understand that if she hasn't fixed what caused her to lose her first child to the state, they can and will remove this child if she regains custody and if she fails to get him back, they will give y'all first choice to have him back?

I'm so sorry you are going through this. A good adoption agency should have provided you mediation and boundaries from the get-go. They should have done their paperwork so overturning an adoption was not possible.

:yeahthat:
BGmom has nothing to do with your first son, he was still a ward of the court even though your agency help with placement. Its done. You need to stand up and put down some rules or you will be miserable forever and thats not fair to you or your son. Your agency needs to be helping you out.
It sure is terrible that you have this going on when you should be enjoying being pregnant :hugs:

[ctoth77]

Does bmom understand that if she hasn't fixed what caused her to lose her first child to the state, they can and will remove this child if she regains custody and if she fails to get him back, they will give y'all first choice to have him back?

I'm so sorry you are going through this. A good adoption agency should have provided you mediation and boundaries from the get-go. They should have done their paperwork so overturning an adoption was not possible.

All this happened because 6 months after our son was born we finally found the b-father (my husband did, the agency didn't really do much) and he claimed he didn't know our bmom was pregnant and he wanted his son. Well, we know he's lying and the judge even said he suspected that he knew about the baby, but didn't think the bmom was credible so he didn't believe her story either. Anyway, it's just all a big mess. And the bmom is really struggling too because she did not expect to have this child and is now having to readjust. I am not very confident that she will end up with him in the long run....if we don't win the appeal, I'm sure he will end up with his bfather.

As far as the agency goes, we really feel like they've failed us in a lot of areas...in not finding the bfather, in not hiring a trial lawyer to assist in our trial (the lawyer we had let things go out of order and let the bdad establish his "poor me" story before the bmom was able to establish hers), and also in not helping with the bgma. Basically, for over a year, whenever I tried to discuss the situation with the director she would just say "yes she [the bgma] is kinda crazy, but the more open a relationship you can have the better". She never let me know that we didn't have to put up with her. We finally started seeing a counselor (who works with the agency) a couple months ago and she suspects that the grandma has a personality disorder and that it's not really possible for things to get better with her. I think that we do need to establish more boundaries, maybe even saying that we don't want to see her for awhile, but we're really worried that she could do something if we won the appeal. I don't know exactly what she could do, but our (new) lawyer told us to be careful.

So, I'm curious, do any of you who have adopted let your bfamilies take the kids out alone? It's hard because we feel like we don't really have a good reason, but we don't really want them to. So we don't know what to tell them other than we don't feel comfortable with it and we're his parents. What do you think? Should we allow it?

[mom23girls]

There are a few things here that need to be addressed from my standpoint...
1) What state do you live in? In some there is something called the Punitive Father Registary. There are some specifics to it and I'm sure that those change by state, but, in short, if a first dad does not participate in the pregnancy, does not financially support the mother, (at least in the state that I live in) AND does not signup with the registry before a certain period of time then, by law, he does not have a way to contest the adoption. I would *ASAP* get in touch with a real adoption lawyer in the state that you are living in if you wish to proceed with the appeals process.
2) Had the first mom relinquished her rights? If so how is the child able to go back to her at this time? :headscratch: Maybe there are some specifics here that I don't know about? I've never heard of a contested adoption where, if first mom's rights were terminated that she automatically 'regained' them BUT I certainly don't know each states' law so it's entirelly possible that I don't know what I am talking about here.

About the birth grandma - I'm with the other posters - I think, for your own sanity that you need to establish the boundries with her - my suggestion would be to try and get the agency you worked with (but that doesn't sound like it would work very well so maybe another agency/social worker) to set up an open dialog for you guys to talk through the issues. If, under no circumstances this will work then, unfortunately, at the end of the day you aren't under any duress to MAKE this work with her. I know that you would like to have this not happen though!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[ctoth77]

There are a few things here that need to be addressed from my standpoint...
1) What state do you live in? In some there is something called the Punitive Father Registary. There are some specifics to it and I'm sure that those change by state, but, in short, if a first dad does not participate in the pregnancy, does not financially support the mother, (at least in the state that I live in) AND does not signup with the registry before a certain period of time then, by law, he does not have a way to contest the adoption. I would *ASAP* get in touch with a real adoption lawyer in the state that you are living in if you wish to proceed with the appeals process.
2) Had the first mom relinquished her rights? If so how is the child able to go back to her at this time? :headscratch: Maybe there are some specifics here that I don't know about? I've never heard of a contested adoption where, if first mom's rights were terminated that she automatically 'regained' them BUT I certainly don't know each states' law so it's entirelly possible that I don't know what I am talking about here.

About the birth grandma - I'm with the other posters - I think, for your own sanity that you need to establish the boundries with her - my suggestion would be to try and get the agency you worked with (but that doesn't sound like it would work very well so maybe another agency/social worker) to set up an open dialog for you guys to talk through the issues. If, under no circumstances this will work then, unfortunately, at the end of the day you aren't under any duress to MAKE this work with her. I know that you would like to have this not happen though!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Ok, to address your questions:
1) I'm in OK and we were able to find a good adoption lawyer who has already taken a few cases to the Supreme Court and won. So far we feel very confident with him.... We've already filed the appeal, so I don't think there's any more we can do but that is his main argument: that the bdad knew about the baby and did nothing. And if he didn't know (as he claims) then it was still his responsibility to find out if she was pregnant (especially since they used NO bc!!!!). I'm not sure if we have the registry here, but our lawyer has not mentioned it to us....

2) According to the stipulations when our bmom terminated her rights, the only way she could get them back was if the bdad came back into the picture and contested the adoption. I don't know if this was just because his rights weren't terminated or what. But it is to protect the child so that he doesn't automatically go to the bdad. The really messed up thing with all this is that although the bmom wants the baby to stay with us, she had to be against us in the case and appeal so that the bdad would not use it against her and get full custody. It's just a crazy situation!!!

3) For the bgma, we talked to a counselor yesterday who is going to meet with us & the bmom to try to come up with something. It's really sad because this girl knows how crazy her mom is too and has to deal with her all the time!! Hopefully we'll be able to come up with something where we won't have to have much contact with her, but where she'll be able to see our son and not have a reason to try to keep the other one away from us....

[ctoth77]

:yeahthat:
BGmom has nothing to do with your first son, he was still a ward of the court even though your agency help with placement. Its done. You need to stand up and put down some rules or you will be miserable forever and thats not fair to you or your son. Your agency needs to be helping you out.
It sure is terrible that you have this going on when you should be enjoying being pregnant :hugs:

Yes, but since the younger one went through the agency, we kind of had the same agreement with the older one. But, your right, we need to do something because this last year and half has been MISERABLE!!!! And I can't live like this forever! Basically either she's mad at us & I'm stressed over things she said & yelled at us, or I'm stressing over when she'll get mad again. There's never any peace!! We're actually considering moving once this is all done just to get some distance. Maybe if we only have to see her a couple times a year it will be better?????

[sourpatch_babe]

:bighug:

[nevergivingaway]

Well, first of all - if the father is fit, I do not think you should be trying to keep his son from him. And from what I'm getting - he may be irresponsible but that doesn't equate unfit.

As far as the natural grandmother of your adopted son, I think you should lay some honest ground rules. Simply tell her what the boundaries are, ask that she respect them or else explain what the consequence will be.

For example - you could say, "We will expect that you visit with your grandson one time a month for 2 hours. This will need to be on a day that we all agree. We expect that we will always be present.... etc, etc, etc." Then explain that as important as a role as she plays in his life, you want to provide your children with a structural family unit and therefor drama and commotion is not welcome.

Don't play baby and essentially mislead her because you want to adopt her other grandchild. That's manipulative, coercive and ethically wrong.

[sourpatch_babe]

Well, first of all - if the father is fit, I do not think you should be trying to keep his son from him. And from what I'm getting - he may be irresponsible but that doesn't equate unfit.

As far as the natural grandmother of your adopted son, I think you should lay some honest ground rules. Simply tell her what the boundaries are, ask that she respect them or else explain what the consequence will be.

For example - you could say, "We will expect that you visit with your grandson one time a month for 2 hours. This will need to be on a day that we all agree. We expect that we will always be present.... etc, etc, etc." Then explain that as important as a role as she plays in his life, you want to provide your children with a structural family unit and therefor drama and commotion is not welcome.

Don't play baby and essentially mislead her because you want to adopt her other grandchild. That's manipulative, coercive and ethically wrong.


wow, just wow. I wish that you re-read the OP post and realize what she's saying.

OP, please disregard this comment. It is hurtful and I wouldn't wish this kind of comment on my worst enemy.

[Rosella]

Nevergivingaway, I would like to know how you would feel if a court stepped in and took your 11 month old from you. The OP has raised this child from birth. The father seems to be a biological donor ONLY. What a callous thing to say.

To the OP, I am so sorry you are enduring this. I would ask your adoption lawyer what rights if any you have to exclude the b-grandma entirely. She sounds like a crazymaker. Also, could you file some kind of formal complaint to someone (I don't know who) about the agency you contracted with for these adoptions? They sound like they are not providing the kind of sensitive and empathetic assistance that situations like this require. I am so sorry! :hugs:

[TestifyToLove]

I would never, ever permit visitation away from me, even in an open adoption situation, not with a toddler, not for quite awhile into an open adoption relationship. When the child was older if you had an honest and trusting relationship then yeah. But, I don't let *anyone* take my toddlers out of my supervision and it wouldn't matter if they had biological ties to my child.

In your shoes, I would tell gma that with everything going on, with the court case and your pregnancy, its best for your family and your children that all contact be in written form for now, and that you will let her know when your stress is reduced and you feel like you can handle anything else again. And, then I would stick with that boundary.

Open adoption agreements are not legally enforcable. They have no teeth to them in any state. And, they only apply to the birthparents in the first place. If you win the appeal, gma has NOTHING to stand on irt contact with your children. She can puff like a peacock all she wants, but she's got nothing to stand on. She can't exert grandparent rights when parental rights are terminated because legally she's no longer recognized as gma.

And, I'm sorry but imo no birthfather should be allowed to show up when a child is 5 months old and attempt to regain custody. I'm not comfortable with limiting the timeframe to 48 hours as I've seen some states do for birthparents. But, imo by 6 weeks, if a birthparent hasn't exerted their parental rights, they shouldn't be allowed to come back. The child is already bonded. And, even if a father says he didn't know, for me best interest of the child would be paramount and who a child has bonded to is what is most important. And, I say that as a birthmother.

[seahawk]

And, I'm sorry but imo no birthfather should be allowed to show up when a child is 5 months old and attempt to regain custody. I'm not comfortable with limiting the timeframe to 48 hours as I've seen some states do for birthparents. But, imo by 6 weeks, if a birthparent hasn't exerted their parental rights, they shouldn't be allowed to come back. The child is already bonded. And, even if a father says he didn't know, for me best interest of the child would be paramount and who a child has bonded to is what is most important. And, I say that as a birthmother.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but since it's being discussed......
This would not be an issue if the law were followed in the first place. The fathers are also parents and they are supposed to have to surrender their parental rights as well. Otherwise, it is not an ethical adoption.

[ctoth77]

wow, just wow. I wish that you re-read the OP post and realize what she's saying.

OP, please disregard this comment. It is hurtful and I wouldn't wish this kind of comment on my worst enemy.

Thank you so much!! I really appreciate this!!!

Actually, he was 15 months when he was moved from our home and it has been very painful! As TestifyToLove mentioned, it should be all about who the child is bonded with, but we've learned that this doesn't mean much in the court system. They basically just look at who the "natural" parents are and disregard us. We've had the Judges tell us that we are not his parents and need to stop acting like it!! It's just so hard to understand how they can think that when we are the ones who were there in the nicu with him for a week, named him, raised him!! It just doesn't make sense to me and has totally destroyed my confidence in our Justice System.

Also, we have kind of complained to that adoption agency. I mean, they know that we blame their lawyer for us losing the initial case, but they still seem to think that there was nothing that could have been done differently. It's hard because they DO have a lot of successful adoptions and have a lot of bmoms that they counsel & minister to....maybe they just don't know how to handle a "botched" adoption. Idk. But we will definitely not be having anything to do with them in the future, and I do have a different perspective and would have different advice for people wanting to adopt.

As for the gma, yes we need to discuss this further with our lawyer and find out what he thinks she could do. I know that the bmom wants ds with us, so I don't know that she could be influenced by her mom (if that's what would need to happen for her to mess things up for us).

I'm curious though....do you not let your kids go out with your own parents or IL's? See, I wouldn't have a problem with that, so I wouldn't be able to tell the bgma that we don't allow ds to go out with anyone. And she expects to have the same "rights" they do so....that's why she's getting upset, I guess. I just hope we'll be able to figure out some boundaries & stick with them. We're seeing the counsellor again next week with the bmom to try to come up with something.

[ctoth77]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but since it's being discussed......
This would not be an issue if the law were followed in the first place. The fathers are also parents and they are supposed to have to surrender their parental rights as well. Otherwise, it is not an ethical adoption.

Well, what happens if the bfather is nowhere to be found....moved, changed jobs, phone numbers, etc. Then what are you supposed to do? Our bmom only knew him for 2 months and had only met one relative (who lived in a gated community that she wasn't able to access). Although I do think the agency could have found him sooner, it was still difficult and we had no leads....

[seahawk]

I wasn't implying that it was your job to find the father or that you broke the law. Obviously, if your husband could do it, the agency (who is the one getting all the money) could have, and much sooner. It is their responsibility, as they are supposed to be the professionals.

I'm curious though....do you not let your kids go out with your own parents or IL's? See, I wouldn't have a problem with that, so I wouldn't be able to tell the bgma that we don't allow ds to go out with anyone. And she expects to have the same "rights" they do so....that's why she's getting upset, I guess. I just hope we'll be able to figure out some boundaries & stick with them. We're seeing the counsellor again next week with the bmom to try to come up with something.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, and I am a big advocate of keeping natural families together, but I don't believe that the fgma should have the same "rights" as your biofamily (because, like it or not, contact or not, this woman IS a part of your family now). I do think the kids should be able to know her (my opinion only, my dad is crazy as a bat, but I make sure my son has a relationship with him, no matter how trying). However, the relationship with the fmom is much more important and you aren't extending the rights of a mother to her, so it doesn't seem like you need to extend gparent rights to the fgma.

:goodvibes:

[TestifyToLove]

No, my babies and toddlers don't go with gparents. And evenso, its different. Your parents and your DH's parents are known and trusted by you. There is a long term relationship established. We still don't allow any of our kids alone, unsupervised with Dh's step-dad. He married MIL 4 years ago and we still know almost nothing about him. He maybe a perfectly wonderful person bit he has thrwated all efforts to get to know him. So, if MIL won't be there to supervise, we make sure one of us is.

You don't have an established and trusting relationship with this woman. In fact, she's been unreasonable and bullish for the relationship you have had. Would you leave your son with her if she were anyone else? And, at the end of the day, you don't have to justify yourselves. You are this child's legal parents. What you say happens in his life is LAW.

Despite the bullying you've recieved, what you decide is right for your son is the only thing that matters. No counselor can make you do anything else. No lawyer can make you do anything else. No judge would make you do anything else (even if she were recognized as a legal grandparent, grandparent rights can only be applied when the nuclear family is no longer intact). You don't *have* to reason with you. You don't *have* to justify yourself. You simply have to say what is going to happen and stand your ground.

There's just nothing else to be said but what you decide is right for your family. Gma can attempt to bully you, but all she has is the force of her personality and her ability to guilt and manipulate.

(Not going to discuss birthparent rights on this thread. I think its a disrespectful tangent for this poster. But, I'll be glad to discuss my opinions on a different thread if someone started one.)

[bezbabe]

ok, i haven't read everything but i wanted to comment on the unsupervised b-gma visits...when our son first came to live with us (almost 1 yr ago), he was almost 3 and had been having weekly unsupervised visits with both b-gmas (but NO contact with either b-parent)...he was more bonded with his maternal b-gma so for a time we allowed unsupervised visits with her (not weekly, mind you) until she allowed his b-mom to talk to him on the phone at christmas. now she (the b-mom) is in jail and social services, not us, stipulated NO contact with her so we got really upset even though it is also our personal wish that he not have contact with b-mom until he is old enough to choose. that said, it was a good experience for him in that he was glad to hear her say that she loved him, etc...but the b-gma violated our trust and our adoptions worker supported us in taking away her visits with him...now we have a tentative agreement where his paternal g-ma can see him on supervised visits twice a year (christmas and b-day in july - we have other issues with her that led to this decision that i won't go into here) and maternal g-ma is invited to his soccer practice once a week...when she is able to make it, she gets to see him...we did that partly to put the onus on her to maintain her access to him...anyway, she has yet to come so we'll see how it goes....
we do allow visits and even overnighters with our parents but that's because we have a basis of trust with them...we do not have that with his other grandparents although admittedly they have to work a lot harder to gain our trust...lol...
so hope that helps a little bit and i am so sorry you are going through this crap with everybody and everything...we've been very lucky to have had a super fantastic worker who has been very supportive of our role and i wish that could have been the case for you....good luck and be strong for those kids!

[sourpatch_babe]

No, my babies and toddlers don't go with gparents. And evenso, its different. Your parents and your DH's parents are known and trusted by you. There is a long term relationship established. We still don't allow any of our kids alone, unsupervised with Dh's step-dad. He married MIL 4 years ago and we still know almost nothing about him. He maybe a perfectly wonderful person bit he has thrwated all efforts to get to know him. So, if MIL won't be there to supervise, we make sure one of us is.

You don't have an established and trusting relationship with this woman. In fact, she's been unreasonable and bullish for the relationship you have had. Would you leave your son with her if she were anyone else? And, at the end of the day, you don't have to justify yourselves. You are this child's legal parents. What you say happens in his life is LAW.

Despite the bullying you've recieved, what you decide is right for your son is the only thing that matters. No counselor can make you do anything else. No lawyer can make you do anything else. No judge would make you do anything else (even if she were recognized as a legal grandparent, grandparent rights can only be applied when the nuclear family is no longer intact). You don't *have* to reason with you. You don't *have* to justify yourself. You simply have to say what is going to happen and stand your ground.

There's just nothing else to be said but what you decide is right for your family. Gma can attempt to bully you, but all she has is the force of her personality and her ability to guilt and manipulate.

(Not going to discuss birthparent rights on this thread. I think its a disrespectful tangent for this poster. But, I'll be glad to discuss my opinions on a different thread if someone started one.)


I couldn't have said it better myself. Although I wouldn't let my kids stay unsupervised with my own family because I know them much less a woman who sounds as if she would kidnap your child given the chance. And I say kidnap because she no longer has any legal ties to him. where adoption is concerned, grandparents have no voice or vote. If bgrandma really wanted your son to stay in the family, she should've taken him in herself instead of allowing him to be adopted out, kwim? I worked in the courts system and this is the kind of person that you want to stay away from. They only cause problems and you'll be dammed if you do, dammed if you don't with her.

[ctoth77]

Thank you all so much for your thoughts and advice!! I've discussed a lot of this with dh and it's definitely given us a new perspective on the situation. I think that even though it will be difficult, we will be limiting her visits for awhile...at least until everything with our youngest is done and I've had my baby. We just need some time to be still and heal without having her stressing us out more....

[shanmarie]

I am so sorry you are having to go thru with this. I am a birthmother and my adoption was in Texas so those are the only laws that I am very familiar with. However, I was able to google OK adoption laws and found that OK does have that registry for the birth fathers. Even so, the adoption agency has the means and ways to find these fathers. I think you got screwed by the agency personally. In Texas, the way it worked for me was this. I gave them the address and name of the father and they served him the papers of me intending to place this child for adoption. He was served three times and never once responded. After the third attempt to serve him with the papers, he had thirty days to contest it. After the thirty days, his rights were automatically terminated. He wasnt even on her birth certificate. Was he listed on your sons original birth certificate? If not, he would have had to establish paternity, at least in Texas he would have. Also, was the adoption finalized? It seems to me that in order for the adoption to be final, all parental rights of both the mother and father would need to be terminated. At that point, the father really has no grounds to stand on. I am so very sorry you are having to deal with this, my heart truly aches for you. I hope that the attorney you have now is able to point all of these things out and will be able to get your son back.

As for the bgmom, I would cease in person contact until you are comfortable with it. I know that if my mom was crazy, I wouldnt want her around my birthdaughter either, nor would her parents.

Big hugs for you!!!!

[StacyW]

I don't have any advice, but this is what has scared me about open adoptions in the first place. I hope it all works out for you and that your son is brought back to you soon!! :hugs:

[shanmarie]

I don't have any advice, but this is what has scared me about open adoptions in the first place. I hope it all works out for you and that your son is brought back to you soon!! :hugs:

I would think that this can happen in a closed adoption as well. Well, not the birthgrandmother, but the father situation can. From everything I have read, if the adoption is final, it is final. But apparently that isnt the case in Ok.

[KatieZ]

as a birth mother of a child i gave up for adoption, in the adoption papers it should say what each and every person, especially grandparents, the availability of the child to the birth family. that should have been decided when the adoption papers were signed and if it wasnt, i would be thinking of complaining to the lawyer that normal procedures werent followed, because the visitation should have been planned out in the beginning. it is something that every state and is normal for every adoption, since it is an open adoption. if for some odd reason it isnt, i would go back and get the adoption papers mended and have it put in there for the birth mother and birth father and grandparents, etc. i have an open adoption and i know my rights and dont ask or push for more. i would read my adoption papers or whatever papers u have and see what it says, and if it doesnt say anything or it is very vague, i would get it un vague and let the birth grandmother know what the papers say. but once the year after the adoption has taken place has passed, it is final. the birth grandparents have no rights or responsibilities to the child. that is why grandparents arent required to sign the papers for adoption. it is mother and father(depending on the situation.) it is complicated, but unless the adoptive mother and father are minors, the grandparents have no rights to signing the paperwork or to the child. the visitation you give to anybody, as the guardians and parents, is up to u and a privilege to the ones you give it to. u need to bluntly tell the birth grandmother how it is gonna go, because if she wants the child, why didnt she fight for custody instead of adopting the baby(ies) out. If u want to talk, please pm me, anytime!

[Taken86]

I'm 22 and im addopted,most of the 1st years of my addoption were spent asking my mom why i couldn't see my real grandma(closed addoption).I wasn't addopted till i was eight(my sister and i togeather). As a child i missed her becuse she was my family and the onely real main adult in our lifes, i made my mom fill realy bad telling her i wanted my real family all the time @ the time i didn't understand my parents desision,but now i do,Its hard to get a child to pertisapate in there addopted family when there trying to hold on to there bilogicle one,for me it was becuse i fealt like i was abanoning them instead of the other way around. i think it just makes it harder on the child to try to spread themselfz between to familyz like that,expeshily when later on there going to have mixed up fillingz about the bilogicale one and why the have them up.I also whent through somthing last year were my husbandz mom thought she had rights to my kids, she was terible,but any way we ended up preasing charges and going to cort,the ended up droping them but did tell her( the judge ) that grandparentz have no right in N.C and that if i didn't whant my kidz around her it was my choice,and if i said no then i could prees charges and they'd stick....i would check out the laws on that in your state and see if grandparents have rightz or just the bil-mom,becuz once u addoped there your child,so if granparentz don't have rightz there,the same should apply with u alowing her to see your child.

[ctoth77]

as a birth mother of a child i gave up for adoption, in the adoption papers it should say what each and every person, especially grandparents, the availability of the child to the birth family. that should have been decided when the adoption papers were signed and if it wasnt, i would be thinking of complaining to the lawyer that normal procedures werent followed, because the visitation should have been planned out in the beginning. it is something that every state and is normal for every adoption, since it is an open adoption. if for some odd reason it isnt, i would go back and get the adoption papers mended and have it put in there for the birth mother and birth father and grandparents, etc. i have an open adoption and i know my rights and dont ask or push for more. i would read my adoption papers or whatever papers u have and see what it says, and if it doesnt say anything or it is very vague, i would get it un vague and let the birth grandmother know what the papers say. but once the year after the adoption has taken place has passed, it is final. the birth grandparents have no rights or responsibilities to the child. that is why grandparents arent required to sign the papers for adoption. it is mother and father(depending on the situation.) it is complicated, but unless the adoptive mother and father are minors, the grandparents have no rights to signing the paperwork or to the child. the visitation you give to anybody, as the guardians and parents, is up to u and a privilege to the ones you give it to. u need to bluntly tell the birth grandmother how it is gonna go, because if she wants the child, why didnt she fight for custody instead of adopting the baby(ies) out. If u want to talk, please pm me, anytime!


Well, let me give some more info.... First of all, my youngests adoption was not final. What had happened was that the bmom signed away her rights and he was placed in our home, but then we spent the next 6 months looking for the bdad (he had moved, changed jobs & phone numbers). I feel very frustrated with the adoption agency because they didn't do much to find him, and my dh was the one to finally do it. The bdad immediately got a lawyer and requested a DNA test and claimed that the bmom never told him she was pregnant so he wanted is son (we believe his new wife was a driving force behind this. whole other story....). Well, we had witnesses & everything that said she did tell him and he did nothing (he's now admitted to her that he just didn't believe her and thought she was just trying to get him to not break up with her!!). Anyway, it's kind of a long story but basically the judge didn't believe either of them so he didn't terminate rights (how does that make sense??? If he thought the bdad DID know about the baby, and did nothing, shouldn't that automatically mean he should lose his rights??!). So the bmom got her rights back and we've been fighting ever since. Our appeal to the Supreme Court is basically that this guy should not be able to change his mind!! If they allow this judgement to go through then they're making it difficult for every woman who finds herself pregnant to be able to make decisions...they'll all have to be worried that the guys who abandon them will come back & make things difficult. So, we'll see what happens. It's just hard, knowing what this guy did and that he's a liar, and that he might win.... It's just not right!!!!

And second of all, about the open adoption, it's kind of tricky because technically our oldest ds is NOT an open adoption. He's through the State and we told our caseworkers that we wanted it open (that's not how they usually do it) because of our younger ds. So, as far as paperwork goes, there's nothing in it about openness. And actually, I'm pretty sure that even with the agency (if our younger son's adoption would have went through) it wouldn't be very specific. They just always say, "The more open the better". They don't really help with setting boundaries or anything. I DEFINITELY wish I would have known more before we did this!!! But I feel like we went in blindly, because we were so desparate to have kids. It's something that I'm very frustrated with myself about......

[shanmarie]

I understand now. I am soooooo sorry you are having to deal with this, really I am. I am in total agreement with you that the agency dropped the ball. Can you make a complaint to the state adoption board (or whomever oversees the adoptions for the state) about their lack of commitment to finding the birthfather and thus leading you to this predictament? My heart is just aching for you. I totally agree with your statement as well about how this is a slap in the face for adoption when the father can come back after ABANDONING the mother...regardless if she told him or not...regardless if he believed her or not...ugh, I am mad and upset for you!! BIG HUGS and I am praying that this all works out in your favor!!!

[graymojo]

My thoughts are with you.
But everyone else is right. Bgmom has no legal standings. If she takes the kids without you it's kidnapping. If she keeps bothering you it's harassment. If she comes over and won't leave, it's trespassing. Don't hesitate to call the cops. Get a restraining order if you have to. I'm all for open adoptions, but it sounds to me like she thinks you all are permanent babysitters.
Let us know when your final courtdate is so we can send prayers and thoughts and whatever else. Hopefully you'll get a good judge that will see the difficulty it will create if your son gets sent to his dad.