Just need to vent....it's another spanking thread

[leyash]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady Well first I don't believe that crime rates are ACTUALLY higher among teens, only that they are tracked and reported differently. But also when talking about spanking, I wouldn't consider 12 to 17 to be KIDS, but TEENS.

I was speaking of kids that aren't disciplined. Not JUST spanked. And the reason that a good majority of 12-17 year olds act the way they do, is because they aren't disciplined as younger children. Crime rates are not studied among children that can't be punished for them criminally. That's why I used that age group.

Is this everyone's argument?

I just can't agree with it. When kids are disciplined, this teaches them to make better decisions, learn from their actions, take responsibility, and know that there are consequences for things they do wrong. Kids that AREN'T disciplined, don't learn this because it is not taught to them.

[JennTheMomma]

Originally Posted by Fairycat I almost completely agree with you 100%, the only disagreement is one previous poster mentioned 20 year olds having issues in the work place and moving back home, there is some truth to this. But the truth lies less in parenting and instead revolves around the culture as a whole, the tie in schools of "everyone is a winner" and "your special" type lessons that created a country of kids with the best self esteem of any other country, but a lack of work ethic, and a belief they are so special, jobs should fight for them. I know many people including myself who saw this in hiring postitions, but it's not all 20 year olds and I doubt it matters if they were spanked. We don't spank I have never seen it work. The friends I had who were spanked tended to be sneakier and tended to talk to their parentsor trusted adults less when it mattered. I also love two of my friends teenagers so much! I have know both of these kids families since they were small. Neither family spanked and they are the kids I hope my kid grows up to be. So I get parenting advice from them. The teens of another few families who did not grow up so nice or together, one has a screamer for a parent and a very rare spanker, the others total spankers for parents, so don't taje discipline advice from them. Overall I do what works for us and seek help from those who have gone before me. My nook hates me.

The only 20 year olds I know living with their parents are because they can't afford to live on their own. Financial aid in many places no longer helps cover any living expenses and it's hard enough to find a job as a adult 30+ years old, I can only imagine how much more harder it must be for a 20 something year old, and college student to add. Even when I was in college and my family members before that, many still lived at home because it was cheaper and easier to focus on schooling without a full time job on top of that.

Originally Posted by leyash All of you that are saying kids aren't different these days... How else do you explain the AMAZING rise in crime over the last 20 years? Crime rates are higher among 12-17 year olds than they EVER have been in the past.

Actually crime rates have gone down in most places, or stayed reltively the same in others.

[leyash]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady Well first I don't believe that crime rates are ACTUALLY higher among teens, only that they are tracked and reported differently. But also when talking about spanking, I wouldn't consider 12 to 17 to be KIDS, but TEENS.

Also, to add to this... ANYONE over the age of 40 can tell you that things were ALOT different when they were younger. My mom and dad talk all the time about "Kids just didn't do that stuff..." when they were younger. Things that are happening these days among young teens didn't happen back then.

Was there crime? Of course. Was everyone that committed a crime back then, caught? Absolutely not. But the world is a LOT different now than it was 30-40 years ago, back when the police weren't knocking on your door because they heard that you punished your child.

That's a lot of the problem these days. Parents are almost AFRAID to discipline their kids because they are afraid of the law. The penal code says that I can spank my child, with my bare hand, on their bottom. Anything beyond that, is abuse (I agree, by the way). Anyway... parents are so afraid of all of these "lines" that the law has made, that they are scared to discipline at all because they never know when they might be crossing a line.

[JennTheMomma]

Originally Posted by leyash Also, to add to this... ANYONE over the age of 40 can tell you that things were ALOT different when they were younger. My mom and dad talk all the time about "Kids just didn't do that stuff..." when they were younger. Things that are happening these days among young teens didn't happen back then. Was there crime? Of course. Was everyone that committed a crime back then, caught? Absolutely not. But the world is a LOT different now than it was 30-40 years ago, back when the police weren't knocking on your door because they heard that you punished your child. That's a lot of the problem these days. Parents are almost AFRAID to discipline their kids because they are afraid of the law. The penal code says that I can spank my child, with my bare hand, on their bottom. Anything beyond that, is abuse (I agree, by the way). Anyway... parents are so afraid of all of these "lines" that the law has made, that they are scared to discipline at all because they never know when they might be crossing a line.

Actually almost all of my family, over 40, don't think kids are different today.

And where do you get that parents are afraid to discipline? I don't see that at all. Maybe it's just where I live and my family and friends, but everyone disciplines. I don't see kids getting away with anything, and it's even evident on forums like this.

ETA: In fact I see OVER disciplining. Some kids I know don't get any sort of freedom or allowed to be kids or make mistakes. Parents constantly down on their cases for normal things. Go to one of the parks here and a kid looks at you wrongly and that calls for yelling from the parent

[leyash]

Originally Posted by JennTheMomma Actually crime rates have gone down in most places, or stayed reltively the same in others.

We could argue this all day long. Drug crimes among kids? Sure, maybe they've gone down. Homicides? Okay, been dropping since the 1980's.

Kids breaking into cars? Kids performing armed robberies? Kids breaking into houses? Shoplifting?

No, I'd have to say, all of these have gone up. It's EVERY SINGLE DAY I'm hearing something, somewhere, about some 17 year old in jail with a track record a mile long for theft and shoplifting.

The bottom line is, this world is NOT the same as it was 30-40 years ago. Period. A lot of kids have a lack of respect for adults these days, and it's becoming more and more of a problem.

[Kiliki]

Originally Posted by leyash All of you that are saying kids aren't different these days... How else do you explain the AMAZING rise in crime over the last 20 years? Crime rates are higher among 12-17 year olds than they EVER have been in the past.

Originally Posted by leyash I was speaking of kids that aren't disciplined. Not JUST spanked. And the reason that a good majority of 12-17 year olds act the way they do, is because they aren't disciplined as younger children. Crime rates are not studied among children that can't be punished for them criminally. That's why I used that age group. Is this everyone's argument? I just can't agree with it. When kids are disciplined, this teaches them to make better decisions, learn from their actions, take responsibility, and know that there are consequences for things they do wrong. Kids that AREN'T disciplined, don't learn this because it is not taught to them.

Once again, I agree with both.

Originally Posted by leyash I have to agree with this statement, wholeheartedly. I have "friends" that say things like this, and it infuriates me. Do they think that I beat my children's a$$es as well? If that's what they call it, then that's obviously what they think I do... When someone says they beat their a$$, it makes me think of two grown men fighting in parking lot, hitting in the face and everything else.

I actually think this depends a lot on context and tone form the parent. For example, I have friends who calmly look at their kids and say, "I WILL beat you." I know they don't BEAT their kids, but they do spank, and that is just what they mean. They're telling their kid, "I've warned you, you're pushing it, and you're about to get spanked."

A parent screaming and totally out of control and cussing - "I will beat your A$$ !" - is out of control and should NEVER touch their child. The issue there isn't their parenting style or choice of whether to spank, they need to chill out before they can even discipline the child in ANY manner.

So I kind of think the way it's said and the context really matter. I don't think it always evokes the mental image of a parent wailing on a kid with a 2x4 for everyone, and I don't think that's what most parents who say it mean. But, I also think it's a really inflammatory thing to say, and it's really not nice at all.

[JennTheMomma]

Originally Posted by leyash We could argue this all day long. Drug crimes among kids? Sure, maybe they've gone down. Homicides? Okay, been dropping since the 1980's. Kids breaking into cars? Kids performing armed robberies? Kids breaking into houses? Shoplifting? No, I'd have to say, all of these have gone up. It's EVERY SINGLE DAY I'm hearing something, somewhere, about some 17 year old in jail with a track record a mile long for theft and shoplifting. The bottom line is, this world is NOT the same as it was 30-40 years ago. Period. A lot of kids have a lack of respect for adults these days, and it's becoming more and more of a problem.

Studies don't agree with you, and of course you see that stuff on the news. Kids doing normal things and being good is not news worthy. They only show the bad stuff. I watch the news daily too and rarely see anything about crimes, and when there are crimes it's normally well above 30 year olds. Some cities are more prone to crime then others, and if you're seeing something every day I'd say it's probably more your area than anything else (and there has always been worse parts of a town or bad cities where crime has always been higher than average).

[leyash]

Originally Posted by JennTheMomma Actually almost all of my family, over 40, don't think kids are different today. And where do you get that parents are afraid to discipline? I don't see that at all. Maybe it's just where I live and my family and friends, but everyone disciplines. I don't see kids getting away with anything, and it's even evident on forums like this.

I'm also talking about friends and family. My own friends and family don't always discipline when they should. There are people like this EVERYWHERE.

People have said that they REFUSE to punish in public for fear that someone will take offense to it, and choose to get other people involved. Because of this, they don't always discipline their children when they should.

Obviously I am not going to argue my friends and family with you. My point is, there ARE parents out there that are afraid to discipline their children for fear of getting in "trouble" or offending someone.

[JennTheMomma]

Originally Posted by leyash I'm also talking about friends and family. My own friends and family don't always discipline when they should. There are people like this EVERYWHERE. People have said that they REFUSE to punish in public for fear that someone will take offense to it, and choose to get other people involved. Because of this, they don't always discipline their children when they should. Obviously I am not going to argue my friends and family with you. My point is, there ARE parents out there that are afraid to discipline their children for fear of getting in "trouble" or offending someone.

Yes, which is a legitment fear. There are so many threads here on DS about "I'm going to call CPS on my neighbor because..." and a lot of times it is not dangerous, harmful, neglect, etc. Just different parenting views. Too many people these days feel they can dictate how other's run their families. That is scary.

However, you made it sound like it's this huge problem etc. Well I don't agree, and studies don't either. Most people discipline and no matter what you're going to have parents who don't, probably because they dont' care. And not disciplining in public is different then not every disciplining. You pick your battles.

[leyash]

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