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Old 10-06-2012, 03:42 PM   #51
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Re: Do you ever feel judged regarding not circumcising?

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Originally Posted by kushie tushie View Post
I try not to use the word mutilate (though it is how I feel) b/c I know its hurtful.
Circ (be it male or female) is genital mutilation by definition.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genit...and_mutilation

Amanda . Blaming my phone for typos and crap.
I get what you're saying. Though if a parent chooses to circ I don't think it's mutilation. And again I'm pro-intact but pro-mind my own business too.

As far as the term, eh, it's subjective IMO and wiki isn't exactly the be all to end all in the medical community. If I remember correctly actual peer reviewed scientific items don't view circumcising as mutilation [on that I can't be 100% sure though because I just don't spend my time thinking that much about other penis' outside of this site anyway.]

Thanks for the hugs though. It really doesn't hurt me per say because like I said though my first son is circ'ed, he's perfect to me

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Old 10-06-2012, 03:47 PM   #52
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Re: Do you ever feel judged regarding not circumcising?

I think what terra is saying is that many procedures would fit the strict definition of mutilation - ear piercing, mastectomies, surgeries, etc. Yet you wouldn't go up to a women who has had her breasts removed and tell her that she is mutilated. It's just plain rude. People who say they use the term mutilate simply because it fits the strict definition and for no other reason... Well, that's a bold faced lie. They use the term to purposefully make it sound awful. If someone wants to do that, it's their prerogative. I just think they should own it instead of hiding behind, "well, it fits the definition." I think that is kind of what terra is getting at.

And I for one do not think she is rude. Outspoken, yes. Rude, no.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:00 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Peanut*
I think what terra is saying is that many procedures would fit the strict definition of mutilation - ear piercing, mastectomies, surgeries, etc. Yet you wouldn't go up to a women who has had her breasts removed and tell her that she is mutilated. It's just plain rude. People who say they use the term mutilate simply because it fits the strict definition and for no other reason... Well, that's a bold faced lie. They use the term to purposefully make it sounds awful. If someone wants to do that, it's their prerogative. I just think they should own it instead of hiding behind, "well, it fits the definition." I think that is kind of what terra is getting at.

And I for one do not think she is rude. Outspoken, yes. Rude, no.
I agree. I was thinking the same thing as Terra.

I would feel so uncomfortable discussing my boys' sexual organs at a mommy group. Seems like such a strange topic.

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ETA: no, I haven't ever felt judged except on these boards for some reason.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:13 PM   #54
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Re: Do you ever feel judged regarding not circumcising?

Just because I feel it is mutliation doesn't mean I'm harshly judging every parent that chooses circ. I believe it is mutilation by definition. You can't compare it to breast removal. Usually there's a medical reason for that, and it's done on a consenting adult! I believe most people who circ don't really understand what a foreskin is and why it's there, but it isn't necessarily their fault. Doctors are mostly to blame. They are the ones who keep doing it (without informed consent, at that), even though it's ethically wrong.

I believe it is mutilation. I don't think parents who choose it are bad parents, though I don't agree that the choice they made was a good one. Clear as mud?

It's a society thing. We aren't supposed to judge parents who choose male circ, but if it were foot binding, female circ, tattooing, extreme piercing, scarification, etc our "judgement" would be fine and dandy. How come? What makes it ok in some cases, but not in others? It's because what's done in THIS society we are supposed to accept. Well, that's not a good enough reason for me. What makes our society more "humane" than a society that practices scarification? Why can we cut half a baby's penis skin off and think it's fine, but turn around and talk about other societies and say, "ugh I can't believe they mutilate their children like that". Pot, meet kettle.

I think people use the "but you're judging us!" argument to try and make me be "ok" with male circ. I won't ever be ok with it. I will never believe it should be a parental choice. I will not "agree to disagree". Yes, I judge. Everyone does. But getting all whiny and telling me I'm being judgemental is kind of dumb. We're talking about removing functional tissue from the sex organs of unconsenting babies. You gotta expect some people to be judgemental.

But again, I don't think they are bad parents. Usually, at best, they've been duped by society and misled by doctors.

And again, I never use the term "mutilate" while trying to educate or debate. I know it doesn't work. But I don't see why it can't be used in a thread that is a bunch of women who left their babies intact, talking about the reactions they've gotten. This isn't a debate thread. Or an informative thread. Or a pro-circ thread. If someone who would easily be offended by anti-circ comments stumbles in here out of curiousity...oh well?
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:43 PM   #55
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Re: Do you ever feel judged regarding not circumcising?

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Originally Posted by Terra View Post
I think it is so ironic and comical that a intact oriented thread started about feeling judged, finds many of it's participants judging others. I do agree we all have the right to our own opinion. But I think you'd be far better to be nice than have sling terms back at people. You know, take the whole high ride thing?

I'm very much for intact boys, but at the end of the day it won't be a barrier in a friendship.


Per your siggy, how would this be God-loving and showing our light? Especially since Christ was a circ'ed Jew?

I should know better than to come in these threads.

I guess at the end of the day we do all have judgements on something. My big one is mommy wars. I guess I have no respect for moms who add to that.
Whether or not you respect me for my stance on a human rights issue bothers me very little. If female genital mutilation is illegal and looked down upon, I believe baby boys deserve the same protection under the law. And yes, they absolutely are comparable. There are many forms of FGM, some more severe than routine infant male circumcision, some less severe, but nevertheless, ALL forms of FGM are illegal, and likewise I believe all forms of MGM should be. I feel very passionately on it not because I think it is a parenting issue, but because it is NOT a parenting issue at all.

It is a very complex issue, and it stirs up very real, raw, powerful emotions in me, not because of "mommy wars" or an intent to put myself on a pedestal above other mothers. Not at all. My ultimate goal is to educate and save baby boys, where doctors, nurses, and country/laws have failed to protect them. I might have my own private thoughts in moments of passion that drive me to anger, but that does not reflect on how I treat others. It is possible to separate flares of emotion from rational thought and the choice of how you want to present information in the best possible method of educating others. It is not all rainbows and butterflies, I have gotten stern with people that were in blatant denial (claiming it was not painful, during or after- that's even worse than the "they won't remember it" argument), but to this day I can honestly say that I have never overstepped and been rude to anyone in my personal life - on facebook or in person. And especially if simply by presenting information I'm met with instant defensiveness, I have compassion for those parents, because I have experienced it. Not only did I struggle with challenging the society norm, but I even circed my oldest boy. I have one acquaintance who despite my efforts she circed her oldest boy. Botched circ. I had my own feelings of anger towards her, as well as a loss of respect. I knew expressing that wouldn't help my case, or her mutliated/botched son, so left it alone. She later came back to me asking for information and has since left her newest born son intact. Ask her what she thinks of me, and it certainly wouldn't be a lack of respect for being the judgmental person you are assuming I am. Yes, I said it is difficult to be friends with people that mutilate their children. Yes, it IS. I did not say impossible, nor did I say that I do not try. It poses a difference in morals and ethics. It is a constant effort to keep my emotions in check and to love and show compassion for someone who I believe committed a violent crime upon their child.

How someone speaks to other people that share the same passion/cause is not directly indicative of how they speak to people outside that cause in efforts to educate.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:44 PM   #56
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Re: Do you ever feel judged regarding not circumcising?

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Originally Posted by Shaunam View Post
Just because I feel it is mutliation doesn't mean I'm harshly judging every parent that chooses circ. I believe it is mutilation by definition. You can't compare it to breast removal. Usually there's a medical reason for that, and it's done on a consenting adult! I believe most people who circ don't really understand what a foreskin is and why it's there, but it isn't necessarily their fault. Doctors are mostly to blame. They are the ones who keep doing it (without informed consent, at that), even though it's ethically wrong.

I believe it is mutilation. I don't think parents who choose it are bad parents, though I don't agree that the choice they made was a good one. Clear as mud?

It's a society thing. We aren't supposed to judge parents who choose male circ, but if it were foot binding, female circ, tattooing, extreme piercing, scarification, etc our "judgement" would be fine and dandy. How come? What makes it ok in some cases, but not in others? It's because what's done in THIS society we are supposed to accept. Well, that's not a good enough reason for me. What makes our society more "humane" than a society that practices scarification? Why can we cut half a baby's penis skin off and think it's fine, but turn around and talk about other societies and say, "ugh I can't believe they mutilate their children like that". Pot, meet kettle.

I think people use the "but you're judging us!" argument to try and make me be "ok" with male circ. I won't ever be ok with it. I will never believe it should be a parental choice. I will not "agree to disagree". Yes, I judge. Everyone does. But getting all whiny and telling me I'm being judgemental is kind of dumb. We're talking about removing functional tissue from the sex organs of unconsenting babies. You gotta expect some people to be judgemental.

But again, I don't think they are bad parents. Usually, at best, they've been duped by society and misled by doctors.

And again, I never use the term "mutilate" while trying to educate or debate. I know it doesn't work. But I don't see why it can't be used in a thread that is a bunch of women who left their babies intact, talking about the reactions they've gotten. This isn't a debate thread. Or an informative thread. Or a pro-circ thread. If someone who would easily be offended by anti-circ comments stumbles in here out of curiousity...oh well?
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:20 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by crunch!910

Whether or not you respect me for my stance on a human rights issue bothers me very little. If female genital mutilation is illegal and looked down upon, I believe baby boys deserve the same protection under the law. And yes, they absolutely are comparable. There are many forms of FGM, some more severe than routine infant male circumcision, some less severe, but nevertheless, ALL forms of FGM are illegal, and likewise I believe all forms of MGM should be. I feel very passionately on it not because I think it is a parenting issue, but because it is NOT a parenting issue at all.

It is a very complex issue, and it stirs up very real, raw, powerful emotions in me, not because of "mommy wars" or an intent to put myself on a pedestal above other mothers. Not at all. My ultimate goal is to educate and save baby boys, where doctors, nurses, and country/laws have failed to protect them. I might have my own private thoughts in moments of passion that drive me to anger, but that does not reflect on how I treat others. It is possible to separate flares of emotion from rational thought and the choice of how you want to present information in the best possible method of educating others. It is not all rainbows and butterflies, I have gotten stern with people that were in blatant denial (claiming it was not painful, during or after- that's even worse than the "they won't remember it" argument), but to this day I can honestly say that I have never overstepped and been rude to anyone in my personal life - on facebook or in person. And especially if simply by presenting information I'm met with instant defensiveness, I have compassion for those parents, because I have experienced it. Not only did I struggle with challenging the society norm, but I even circed my oldest boy. I have one acquaintance who despite my efforts she circed her oldest boy. Botched circ. I had my own feelings of anger towards her, as well as a loss of respect. I knew expressing that wouldn't help my case, or her mutliated/botched son, so left it alone. She later came back to me asking for information and has since left her newest born son intact. Ask her what she thinks of me, and it certainly wouldn't be a lack of respect for being the judgmental person you are assuming I am. Yes, I said it is difficult to be friends with people that mutilate their children. Yes, it IS. I did not say impossible, nor did I say that I do not try. It poses a difference in morals and ethics. It is a constant effort to keep my emotions in check and to love and show compassion for someone who I believe committed a violent crime upon their child.

How someone speaks to other people that share the same passion/cause is not directly indicative of how they speak to people outside that cause in efforts to educate.
Well said!
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:20 PM   #58
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Re: Do you ever feel judged regarding not circumcising?

I don't really talk about it with other people, but my family judges us big time!! MY dad even called up my husband before DS was born and begged him not to, stating the usual is dirty, urinary tract infection, people will think he's a freak, dont you want him to look like you debates.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:25 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaunam
Just because I feel it is mutliation doesn't mean I'm harshly judging every parent that chooses circ. I believe it is mutilation by definition. You can't compare it to breast removal. Usually there's a medical reason for that, and it's done on a consenting adult! I believe most people who circ don't really understand what a foreskin is and why it's there, but it isn't necessarily their fault. Doctors are mostly to blame. They are the ones who keep doing it (without informed consent, at that), even though it's ethically wrong.

I believe it is mutilation. I don't think parents who choose it are bad parents, though I don't agree that the choice they made was a good one. Clear as mud?

It's a society thing. We aren't supposed to judge parents who choose male circ, but if it were foot binding, female circ, tattooing, extreme piercing, scarification, etc our "judgement" would be fine and dandy. How come? What makes it ok in some cases, but not in others? It's because what's done in THIS society we are supposed to accept. Well, that's not a good enough reason for me. What makes our society more "humane" than a society that practices scarification? Why can we cut half a baby's penis skin off and think it's fine, but turn around and talk about other societies and say, "ugh I can't believe they mutilate their children like that". Pot, meet kettle.

I think people use the "but you're judging us!" argument to try and make me be "ok" with male circ. I won't ever be ok with it. I will never believe it should be a parental choice. I will not "agree to disagree". Yes, I judge. Everyone does. But getting all whiny and telling me I'm being judgemental is kind of dumb. We're talking about removing functional tissue from the sex organs of unconsenting babies. You gotta expect some people to be judgemental.

But again, I don't think they are bad parents. Usually, at best, they've been duped by society and misled by doctors.

And again, I never use the term "mutilate" while trying to educate or debate. I know it doesn't work. But I don't see why it can't be used in a thread that is a bunch of women who left their babies intact, talking about the reactions they've gotten. This isn't a debate thread. Or an informative thread. Or a pro-circ thread. If someone who would easily be offended by anti-circ comments stumbles in here out of curiousity...oh well?
That's exactly what I was thinking... You don't have a mastectomy done on your baby girl.

The United States is not part of the global status quo when it comes to circumcision. Globally, 70% of circed men are Muslim, and here in the US it's done constantly without a second thought. I just the fact that we are alone in cosmetic circumcision should raise some eyebrows.

I also agree with what you noted about the term "mutilate". Of course I would never say that when trying to convince a mom of the benefits to leaving her son intact or when commenting during a conversation at a play group, but that's not what I'm doing here.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:27 PM   #60
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And Kelsey, I have seen you rude in other threads.
Really? I think you mean blunt, honest, or truthful.
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