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Old 10-12-2012, 09:39 PM   #51
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Re: Question for Christians...

Honestly, it isn't worth engaging a JW on matters of faith. As can be true of many non-Catholic denominations, individuals are taught enough partial truths about Catholicism that they are rarely willing to be educated as to the truths about our faith.

I would think that relating back to OP's original question that JW's would have a much more difficult time fulfilling their obligations as citizens of the U.S. in terms of what their faith dictates as most branches of Christianity.

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Old 10-12-2012, 10:23 PM   #52
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Re: Question for Christians...

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In my time around the block, everyone I have ever met who has a problem with the Catholic church, the 2 points they bring up are always the fact that the Catholic Church has a lot of money (I will come back to this) and the fact that priests hurt boys. More so than not they are more upset with the money part of it which is so odd to me.
That's so interesting. As a born again Christian, my objection to the Catholic church has been that salvation/getting into heaven is by works. It is interesting reading this thread and realizing that is not taught. I actually agree with the thought that if you are saved, works will follow. Question though: if works do not follow, does this mean you are not saved? (or whatever term you use)

My other objection is that many of the younger Catholics that I personally know (I'm not saying that this applies to everyone obviously) is that they tend to be "sunday going to meetin' Catholics" where they have the worst potty mouth, attend rallies to legalize gay marriage/MJ/etc, may not sleep around per se, but do everything but actual intercourse, and basically in no way act like a good Christian/Catholic, but then pull the "I'm a Catholic" card, attend mass/confession, and "I'm prolife so I'm a good Catholic." I realize that this is a problem that goes across the age group (in any religion), but it peeves me when people are inconsistent, you know? And this isn't just one Catholic young person that I know, I've seen this in several of the teenagers and young people I know that were raised Catholic across several families. Is there a time when they are expected to "buckle down" so to speak? Kind of like the Amish with Rumspringa?

We have a lot of Catholic friends. They are all sweet loving families who are amazing examples. We just haven't really taken the time to talk religion. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that are absolutely pleasing God with their actions and lives.

I am NOT bashing Catholics, these are honest observations and questions.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:38 PM   #53
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Re: Question for Christians...

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That's so interesting. As a born again Christian, my objection to the Catholic church has been that salvation/getting into heaven is by works. It is interesting reading this thread and realizing that is not taught. I actually agree with the thought that if you are saved, works will follow. Question though: if works do not follow, does this mean you are not saved? (or whatever term you use)

My other objection is that many of the younger Catholics that I personally know (I'm not saying that this applies to everyone obviously) is that they tend to be "sunday going to meetin' Catholics" where they have the worst potty mouth, attend rallies to legalize gay marriage/MJ/etc, may not sleep around per se, but do everything but actual intercourse, and basically in no way act like a good Christian/Catholic, but then pull the "I'm a Catholic" card, attend mass/confession, and "I'm prolife so I'm a good Catholic." I realize that this is a problem that goes across the age group (in any religion), but it peeves me when people are inconsistent, you know? And this isn't just one Catholic young person that I know, I've seen this in several of the teenagers and young people I know that were raised Catholic across several families. Is there a time when they are expected to "buckle down" so to speak? Kind of like the Amish with Rumspringa?

We have a lot of Catholic friends. They are all sweet loving families who are amazing examples. We just haven't really taken the time to talk religion. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that are absolutely pleasing God with their actions and lives.

I am NOT bashing Catholics, these are honest observations and questions.
Unlike some protestant organizations, there is no concept of being "saved" in the Catholic faith. We are human. We are flawed. We sin. That is a simple truth. You cannot get into heaven with sin on your soul. The idea that you can decide that you accept God and are therefore saved and assured of heaven is a concept that doesn't even fall into our belief system at all. Only God can grant us heaven. We cannot simply decide that we have enough faith to enter heaven.

Sorry - clicked post before I was actually done.

I don't know about the young people you have experienced. But in general teens and young adults are pretty self centered, thoughtless, don't understand consequences, etc. That isn't something unique to any faith. Certainly teens or young adults in certain faiths are more sheltered and have less opportunities to run wild than others. Only an individual can decide whether they are ready and able to follow their faith and have to determine their own path.

Those teen and young adult years can be a difficult time in anyone's life. The structure of Catholicism can be offputting to someone struggling with their identity.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:51 PM   #54
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I won't comment on the catholic part because I'm biased. I was raised catholic, but left to a different denomination as an adult. But, our nations government is based very much on the structure of the priesthood in the old testament. so imo that is what is biblical.

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Old 10-13-2012, 07:17 AM   #55
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Re: Question for Christians...

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Originally Posted by ajbailey89 View Post
That's so interesting. As a born again Christian, my objection to the Catholic church has been that salvation/getting into heaven is by works. It is interesting reading this thread and realizing that is not taught. I actually agree with the thought that if you are saved, works will follow. Question though: if works do not follow, does this mean you are not saved? (or whatever term you use)

My other objection is that many of the younger Catholics that I personally know (I'm not saying that this applies to everyone obviously) is that they tend to be "sunday going to meetin' Catholics" where they have the worst potty mouth, attend rallies to legalize gay marriage/MJ/etc, may not sleep around per se, but do everything but actual intercourse, and basically in no way act like a good Christian/Catholic, but then pull the "I'm a Catholic" card, attend mass/confession, and "I'm prolife so I'm a good Catholic." I realize that this is a problem that goes across the age group (in any religion), but it peeves me when people are inconsistent, you know? And this isn't just one Catholic young person that I know, I've seen this in several of the teenagers and young people I know that were raised Catholic across several families. Is there a time when they are expected to "buckle down" so to speak? Kind of like the Amish with Rumspringa?

We have a lot of Catholic friends. They are all sweet loving families who are amazing examples. We just haven't really taken the time to talk religion. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that are absolutely pleasing God with their actions and lives.

I am NOT bashing Catholics, these are honest observations and questions.
I don't think this problem you are describing is related to only the younger generation (or even just Catholics). We have always referred to this as a "cafeteria Catholic", they pick and chose what they will believe. I see this where I live more in middle aged people who have the same behaviors you are describing yet if you ask they will identify as Catholic. I think it is because they were poorly educated in our faith. Sadly I have met priests who were also lacking a proper understanding of what the Church believes. After Vatican 2 there was so much misunderstanding as to what it really meant and some people took advantage of it and used it to spread incorrect information. But things are getting better and the younger members are receiving the correct information.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:33 AM   #56
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Re: Question for Christians...

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I don't think this problem you are describing is related to only the younger generation (or even just Catholics). We have always referred to this as a "cafeteria Catholic", they pick and chose what they will believe. I see this where I live more in middle aged people who have the same behaviors you are describing yet if you ask they will identify as Catholic.
the thing is, I have seen these people of every age in every denomination.

That's why people always complain that the church is full of hypocrites. Because people are Sunday Christians. Not just Catholics.

and not all people, of course. But people see what they want to see.

I've known tons of Baptist teens who believed 'once saved, always saved' and therefore they could do whatever they wanted from Monday to Saturday. That's not a hit against the Baptists, it's just that my denomination doesn't believe 'once saved, always saved', so I think I saw it less in my own circle.

anyways, that's not a rag on any denominations - but the point is that every church has these people who are only 'Christian' when it suits them. And that's one of the biggest problems the church has - because the entire church is judged for the actions of these people instead of the more devout crowd.

but honestly, I'm glad they atleast make the decision to go to church on Sunday or Saturday mass - whatever. It's certainly better than not going at all. They are making 1 really good decision even if other decisions are questionable.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:40 AM   #57
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Lets keep the thread nice please. No need to bash anyones religion or lack there of.
Yes. This.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:58 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by EmilytheStrange
but honestly, I'm glad they atleast make the decision to go to church on Sunday or Saturday mass - whatever. It's certainly better than not going at all. They are making 1 really good decision even if other decisions are questionable.
Yep. And when you see a Catholic (or another denomination of Christian), or actually someone of any faith group, behaving hypocritically, don't rush to assume that those behaviors are what the faith actually teaches. People have misunderstandings, people make mistakes, and people sin.

If kids get into a fight on the playground, we don't assume that their school teaches them to punch people. So why do we assume a church has TAUGHT someone to do something that seems wrong or sinful? Probably that's a human decision.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:38 AM   #59
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those particular churches might not be so different.

I grew up Pentecostal and our beliefs are very different from the ones listed. Most around the issue of the trinity. Is the Godhead in the trinity or is the trinity in the Godhead? Past that, there's the 'once saved, always saved?' belief and others. Those are probably the biggest, most 'salvation related' ones. Well, Holy Ghost, tongues, etc can get pretty big as well.

Being that we're military, we move every few years and finding a new church where the beliefs line up with what we believe can be difficult. Even if we were trying to continue to go to Pentecostal churches, which we are not.

I have attended a myriad of churches in my adult life just trying to find one. I lived in rural OK and finding anything other than the big 3 (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist) was fairly difficult, so I explored them to see if I could attend.

well, I didn't explore Catholicism, because I know I'm not Catholic (no offense, please). but I have been to Midnight Mass and it was beautiful.
Interesting. As a Pentecostal (Church of God of Prophecy and occasional AofG, not Holiness) that married a Catholic, I don't find we are that different on the core beliefs. Lots of different traditions, though. We did have a problem with the denominational bashing in our local pentecostal and catholic churches, though. We attend an Independent Charismatic church now. Like you, I knew I wasn't Catholic (not that it is a bad thing), but was willing to attend both churches as a family. Or consider a Charismatic Catholic church. Grateful to find a uniting church we could grow in, though. It has been a blessing. I'm surprised it would've hard to find a Pentecostal church in OK. I'm in NEOK and they seem to have some branch of Pentecostal in even the tiny towns up here. There are differences in different branches/churches, though.

Sorry to get OT.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:43 PM   #60
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Re: Question for Christians...

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Yep. And when you see a Catholic (or another denomination of Christian), or actually someone of any faith group, behaving hypocritically, don't rush to assume that those behaviors are what the faith actually teaches. People have misunderstandings, people make mistakes, and people sin.

If kids get into a fight on the playground, we don't assume that their school teaches them to punch people. So why do we assume a church has TAUGHT someone to do something that seems wrong or sinful? Probably that's a human decision.
this is so true. People are people. They make their own decisions.

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I'm surprised it would've hard to find a Pentecostal church in OK. I'm in NEOK and they seem to have some branch of Pentecostal in even the tiny towns up here. There are differences in different branches/churches, though.

Sorry to get OT.
well, the town I lived in.. well, the county had 1500 total people, so very very small. This was NWOK and it's much more rural out west. There was a church on every corner though, something about a city ordinance that a bar couldn't be within so many miles (probably yards, I think the entire length of the town was only 1 mile) of a church, so it was covered in churches. The big ones mentioned and then the big OK ones such as Mennonite, Quaker, etc. There was a Pentecostal church an hour away in Enid and I tried them, but they were not a good fit.
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