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Old 11-29-2012, 09:34 AM   #71
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Re: Declined antibiotic for Group B & regretted it?

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Originally Posted by steph410 View Post
I am seriously not sure what that added of any value to the argument for IV abx in labor to treat GBS. It was so rude and condescending.

I muscled through it anyway.

I noticed the study the author references was using wipes. Seriously? That is ridiculous. I am nearly positive that Hibiclens is used in a different manner than what the study described. Which makes the study totally useless.

I also find his arguments against Hibiclens to be ill-informed, at best. The REASON we're told not to use it is b/c it's not been tested on pregnant/nursing moms. Well, DUH! NO drugs (that I am aware of) are actively tested on pregnant or nursing women b/c of ethical issues... Which makes that point totally useless. If you've ever used Tylenol or Vicks Vapor rub during pregnancy, you have used something that is not studied in pregnant women.

I also noticed that he said that IV abx have helped decrease EARLY ONSET GBS infections. There are late onset infections. And IIRC (and I may not) they can be worse in outcome than early onset. So it makes me wonder how many late onset cases are stopped.... if any at all.

I also find it INCREDIBLY ironic that here the mass population is buying anti-bacterial soaps for their hands, to kill bacteria, and in fact, we're told to wash frequently to help prevent the spread of infectious disease... yet the same logic doesn't apply to our vaginas? Is the vagina somehow amazingly immune to the antibacterial abilities of medicinal soap? Or something?

Sorry, I think linking to a blog, where a guy obviously has an axe to grind against the natural birthing community, and uses mud slinging and strange logic to make a point, and then ends it with:

Quote:
it fulfills the MOST important criteria for an NCB “treatment”; it is a form of ignorant, immature, self absorbed defiance of authority. And if that isn’t a good enough reason for NCB advocates to risk killing their babies, what is?
...is completely pointless.

Things like what we're eating also play a factor. Our immune systems can't handle sugar overload. And the average American diet SUCKS. How about things like garlic? Or the fact that birthing a baby at home, or with minimal medical intervention, lessens the risks of infections spreading altogether? How about the idea that a shorter birth = far less risk to baby? Or the fact that some women will test negative but then ACTUALLY be positive... how do we treat them? Shall we just start assuming all laboring mothers are positive and giving every woman in labor IV abx? (Yay! We've just created resistant super bacteria!)

There are just too many facets of this issue to start throwing around black and white labels. Do what is comfortable to you. But don't damn me for disagreeing and doing something else.



For the sake of argument, here is a blog that references studies that SUPPORT the use of Hibiclens instead of abx (please note, they used it to FLUSH out the vagina, or to douche, NOT as a wipe):

http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespac...gbs-women.html


.

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Last edited by Kiliki; 11-29-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:40 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiliki

I am seriously not sure what that added of any value to the argument for IV abx in labor to treat GBS. It was so rude and condescending.

I muscled through it anyway.

I noticed the study the author references was using wipes. Seriously? That is ridiculous. I am nearly positive that Hibiclens is used in a different manner than what the study described. Which makes the study totally useless.

I also find his arguments against Hibiclens to be ill-informed, at best. The REASON we're told not to use it is b/c it's not been tested on pregnant/nursing moms. Well, DUH! NO drugs (that I am aware of) are actively tested on pregnant or nursing women b/c of ethical issues... Which makes that point totally useless. If you've ever used Tylenol or Vicks Vapor rub during pregnancy, you have used something that is not studied in pregnant women.

I also noticed that he said that IV abx have helped decrease EARLY ONSET GBS infections. There are late onset infections. And IIRC (and I may not) they can be worse in outcome than early onset. So it makes me wonder how many late onset cases are stopped.... if any at all.

I also find it INCREDIBLY ironic that here the mass population is buying anti-bacterial soaps for their hands, to kill bacteria, and in fact, we're told to wash frequently to help prevent the spread of infectious disease... yet the same logic doesn't apply to our vaginas? Is the vagina somehow amazingly immune to the antibacterial abilities of medicinal soap? Or something?

Sorry, I think linking to a blog, where a guy obviously has an axe to grind against the natural birthing community, and uses mud slinging and strange logic to make a point, and then ends it with:

...is completely pointless.

Things like what we're eating also play a factor. Our immune systems can't handle sugar overload. And the average American diet SUCKS. How about things like garlic? Or the fact that birthing a baby at home, or with minimal medical intervention, lessens the risks of infections spreading altogether? How about the idea that a shorter birth = far less risk to baby? Or the fact that some women will test negative but then ACTUALLY be positive... how do we treat them? Shall we just start assuming all laboring mothers are positive and giving every woman in labor IV abx? (Yay! We've just created resistant super bacteria!)

There are just too many facets of this issue to start throwing around black and white labels. Do what is comfortable to you. But don't damn me for disagreeing and doing something else.

For the sake of argument, here is a blog that references studies that SUPPORT the use of Hibiclens instead of abx (please note, they used it to FLUSH out the vagina, or to douche, NOT as a wipe):

http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespac...gbs-women.html

.
Very well said.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:41 PM   #73
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Re: Declined antibiotic for Group B & regretted it?

it wasn't written by a guy, it is a female. Here is more info about her (from the same site):

"Dr. Amy Tuteur is an obstetrician gynecologist. She received her undergraduate degree from Harvard College in 1979 and her medical degree from Boston University School of Medicine in 1984. Dr. Tuteur is a former clinical instructor at Harvard Medical School. She left the practice of medicine to raise her four children. Her book, How Your Baby Is Born, an illustrated guide to pregnancy, labor and delivery was published by Ziff-Davis Press in 1994. She can be reached at DrAmy5 at aol dot com."

I think it has a lot of interesting and factual information in it for those who would like facts to help them choose.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:14 PM   #74
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Re: Declined antibiotic for Group B & regretted it?

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Originally Posted by steph410 View Post
it wasn't written by a guy, it is a female. Here is more info about her (from the same site):

"Dr. Amy Tuteur is an obstetrician gynecologist. She received her undergraduate degree from Harvard College in 1979 and her medical degree from Boston University School of Medicine in 1984. Dr. Tuteur is a former clinical instructor at Harvard Medical School. She left the practice of medicine to raise her four children. Her book, How Your Baby Is Born, an illustrated guide to pregnancy, labor and delivery was published by Ziff-Davis Press in 1994. She can be reached at DrAmy5 at aol dot com."

I think it has a lot of interesting and factual information in it for those who would like facts to help them choose.
My apologies, didn't realize it was a female. The writing was so aggressive, my brain automatically assumed it was a male.

Also, I don't see much useful info, for the reasons I listed above. A medical degree does not make a person an expert, it just means they went to school and paid a whole lot of money (and spent a whole lot of time, and worked really hard) for a nice piece of paper to say they are qualified to practice medicine. They don't have to practice evidence-based medicine, or have a good bedside manner, or even have to be good at what they do.

So while I love the fact that she is so smart and is well-educated, it doesn't mean she is right about everything she thinks, despite how passionate she obviously is about it. The fact that she is an OB explains a whole lot about her anger towards NCB, and is a great example of why I won't let an OB touch me unless it is a TRUE medical emergency. It only solidifies my feelings about America's mainstream maternity care.

It's also sad that while she mentioned ONE study in her blog, she didn't chose one that is accurate in the method used, which makes all the claims from the study irrelevant. As pointed out in the blog I linked to, there are obviously at least 3 OTHER studies done, with contradictory evidence. Why is this Dr. not also commenting on those studies? No one is thinking that pouring Hibiclens on a washcloth and wiping their vagina with it is going to make GBS go away. I find it sad that such a well-educated, well-practiced medical professional would be unwilling to discover both sides of an argument, rather than just support the mainstream b/c it is most commonly accepted.

There's nothing wrong with doing things the way everyone else does them, or thinking along with the mainstream. I do a lot of things everyday that are mainstream. The problem comes when the mainstream thinking is wrong, or is flawed. And then anyone who opposes or questions it is a quack. That's not fair at all. Remember, humans thought for a long, LONG time that the Earth was flat. People were put to death for claiming otherwise. And now we know the Earth is actually a sphere. Let's not be so overconfident that we cut off our noses to spite our faces. New ideas should be investigated, not trampled on.

ETA: I also actually think that if you dug just a little more, you likely could have found a blog with studies supporting the use of abx for GBS without such a nasty tone. I googled for like 5 seconds and found the one article supporting Hibiclens, which is very neutral, and leaves the choice up to the mother. There is NO benefit to name calling or a condescending tone. Every person has a basic human RIGHT to decline and accept medical treatments, a doctor's job should be to UPHOLD and HONOR and RESPECT those rights, not make them feel like a crazed fanatical lunatic, looking for an excuse to murder their babies.

Last edited by Kiliki; 11-29-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:10 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiliki
A medical degree does not make a person an expert, it just means they went to school and paid a whole lot of money (and spent a whole lot of time, and worked really hard) for a nice piece of paper to say they are qualified to practice medicine. They don't have to practice evidence-based medicine, or have a good bedside manner, or even have to be good at what they do.

So while I love the fact that she is so smart and is well-educated, it doesn't mean she is right about everything she thinks, despite how passionate she obviously is about it. The fact that she is an OB explains a whole lot about her anger towards NCB, and is a great example of why I won't let an OB touch me unless it is a TRUE medical emergency. It only solidifies my feelings about America's mainstream maternity care.
Yup. I have read SEVERAL things by "doctor" Amy, including a comment of hers that "breastfeeding CAUSES violence". Direct quote. I can post the link if you like. She seems to be a very hateful, bitter individual who is diametrically opposed to any natural, including natural birth and natural parenting methods, for whatever reason. She condemns entire schools of thought (like home birth) without solid reason. I wouldn't trust anything she says/writes.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:30 PM   #76
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I agree about this doctor. I consider myself to be more comfortable with mainstream birth than are many on DS and I think she's horrible.

I also wonder about her credentials and about what kind of doctor has time to have a blog.

I had a midwife for my first pregnancy and she was horrible. I have an OB this time who is much more natural birth oriented than the midwife. He talks to me about what's going and listens to me. There are no absolutes that a mw is great an OB is evil.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:42 PM   #77
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Re: Declined antibiotic for Group B & regretted it?

Dr Amy, is absolutely terrible. She is completely one sided and is belittling and abusive if your opinion even sways a tiny bit from hers. I have see. Her do some pretty disgusting things. She can at times be a deplorable human being.

She can be take a grain of truth and twist it and turn it to make it imply whatever she wishes ( as she has done with this article). I would never believe a word she says and definitely don't think anyone should be reading her blog for information purposes.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:17 PM   #78
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Re: Declined antibiotic for Group B & regretted it?

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I had a midwife for my first pregnancy and she was horrible. I have an OB this time who is much more natural birth oriented than the midwife. He talks to me about what's going and listens to me. There are no absolutes that a mw is great an OB is evil.
This is true. But I think it's safe to stereotype them. The midwife philosophy is much more natural childbirth-oriented then what they teach in medical school. While you may run across a few "med-wives" (I have!) and a few OBs that are awesome at natural childbirth, that's not necessarily the norm.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:49 PM   #79
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Re: Declined antibiotic for Group B & regretted it?

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This is true. But I think it's safe to stereotype them. The midwife philosophy is much more natural childbirth-oriented then what they teach in medical school. While you may run across a few "med-wives" (I have!) and a few OBs that are awesome at natural childbirth, that's not necessarily the norm.
I agree.

While there are exceptions, (I personally had the worst MEDwife EVER for ODD), for the most part, it does seem to go this way.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:09 PM   #80
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Re: Declined antibiotic for Group B & regretted it?

I tested GBS + at 37 weeks with DD but didn't find out till 39 weeks because the lab lost the results or something. I was having a homebirth, my midwife suggested the hibi clens washes which I did for 3 days before being retested. It was positive again (found that out 3 days after she was born though lol). The doctor that did the 2nd swab had given me an antibiotic rx anyway so we had those ready. I decided that if labor was prolonged, water broken early in labor etc then we would do the IV abx at home. I also had a urine culture done, if it had come back positive I absolutely would have done the antibiotics as that can indicate a more sever infection that may already be in the amniotic fluid. It was negative though.

As it is I ended up being in labor for just over 3 hours (and I had to have vancomycin which is once every 12 hours given over an hour so not very effective in such a short time anyway), my water broke right before pushing and I birthed in my tub which we had put iodine and hibiclens in. Baby was OK but I was paranoid and watched her like a hawk those first few weeks. If labor had been longer I would have done the abx, but I literally had no warning! lol
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