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Old 07-12-2008, 10:54 PM   #91
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Re: what do you make of the autism and vax connection?

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Originally Posted by AnnaG01 View Post
"trigger" (aka a vaccine) to onset the disease.
I could be off, but perhaps you guys do agree to some extent.

A trigger.

One poster said, "Maybe it's that the vaccine causes these genes to shut off or maybe it is coincidence." Hence - trigger. You said trigger as well.

That is my belief.

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Old 07-12-2008, 11:00 PM   #92
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Re: what do you make of the autism and vax connection?

I believe that it is time for me to respectfully bow out of this thread. I have met my original goals of differentiating between Autistic symptoms and a medical diagnosis of Autism and have presented the point of view that in the medical community the relationship between vaccinations and Autism has not been definitively shown. I have viewed the other information presented to me and am still not seeing what I believe to be "black and white" proof of this link. When you are talking about a medical condition (or disease or disability whatever you want to call Autism), I don't know how much more black and white you can get than the DSM definition. When you go to the doctor for a cold, he/she looks at your symptoms and determines that they fit the definition of a cold. When you go to a psychiatrist, they listen to your symptoms and determine if you have a mental illness. If definitions and looking at symptoms works in every other part of the field why not accept that works when labeling a child with Autism?

The side effects listed in the Merck insert don't in and of themselves match Autism (again the medical definition) or only Autism. Yes I see intellectual difficulty in some kids with Autism (this is also present in kids with a Learning Disability or kids who are just plain below grade level but without a disability), lose control of movement (I've seen poor gross motor or fine motor skills but never what I would call a loss of control), these being involuntary motions (repetitive movements seen in Autism are not involuntary they serve a purpose in helping that person process the world around them), impairment and increasingly deteriorated comprehension this is also present in kids with a Learning Disability or a Speech Language Impairment) Are all disabilities caused by vaccines? A learning disability generally is not diagnosed until 3rd grade. Not because of incompetent teachers but because that is when the symptoms become evident. Is there a particular vaccine given between 8 and 9 that would cause this?
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:22 PM   #93
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Re: what do you make of the autism and vax connection?

NOTHING is without risk. You can decide to not vax- and you have a greater chance of your child contracting a disease- but no risk from the side effect of a vaccine. Or you can chose to vax and run the risk of the side effect of a vaccine but have a lower risk that your child will contract a disease. It's up to each person to decide which risk is greater and then go from there.

I personally chose to vaccinate my daughter because I feel that the risk of her contracting a disease and dying from it or getting a horrible complication such as= encephalitis, meningitis, cerebellar ataxia and hepatitis- is greater than her reacting adversely to the vaccine.

Those complications I just listed above are just possible complications from having the chicken pox. They are all rare complications- true. But so are all the reactions listed on the vaccine insert. They are all statistically very rare- in fact more rare than the rate of death or disability from the diseases they protect against.


So unfortunately it is a game of russian roulette- neither way is totally safe. But in your decision to vax or not vax, do NOT think that the diseases they protect against are not dangerous or without risk to your child...I've seen people downplay them again and again here- and as a pediatric nurse who has seen kids DIE from them- that really personally bothers me.
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:28 PM   #94
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Re: what do you make of the autism and vax connection?

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Originally Posted by missykay View Post
I believe that it is time for me to respectfully bow out of this thread. I have met my original goals of differentiating between Autistic symptoms and a medical diagnosis of Autism and have presented the point of view that in the medical community the relationship between vaccinations and Autism has not been definitively shown. I have viewed the other information presented to me and am still not seeing what I believe to be "black and white" proof of this link. When you are talking about a medical condition (or disease or disability whatever you want to call Autism), I don't know how much more black and white you can get than the DSM definition. When you go to the doctor for a cold, he/she looks at your symptoms and determines that they fit the definition of a cold. When you go to a psychiatrist, they listen to your symptoms and determine if you have a mental illness. If definitions and looking at symptoms works in every other part of the field why not accept that works when labeling a child with Autism?

The side effects listed in the Merck insert don't in and of themselves match Autism (again the medical definition) or only Autism. Yes I see intellectual difficulty in some kids with Autism (this is also present in kids with a Learning Disability or kids who are just plain below grade level but without a disability), lose control of movement (I've seen poor gross motor or fine motor skills but never what I would call a loss of control), these being involuntary motions (repetitive movements seen in Autism are not involuntary they serve a purpose in helping that person process the world around them), impairment and increasingly deteriorated comprehension this is also present in kids with a Learning Disability or a Speech Language Impairment) Are all disabilities caused by vaccines? A learning disability generally is not diagnosed until 3rd grade. Not because of incompetent teachers but because that is when the symptoms become evident. Is there a particular vaccine given between 8 and 9 that would cause this?

I don't disagree with a lot of what you said. You obviously know your stuff regarding kids with disabilities. That is my field as well. You are a special ed teacher and I am a school psychologist. We see it everyday.

My main point was regarding "triggers". It just has been difficult to prove triggers. I still believe that there is a connection in some cases.

I don't understand how Merck insert has anything to do with Autism. Was someone trying to say that the Merck insert evidences Autism? So confused. I didn't read everything.

I believe that the researchers have had difficulties showing a link between vaccines and other environmental factors due to the many different variables involved with autism. In order to conduct a good research study, you have to be careful about making it as pure as possible and weed out different competing variables. Otherwise, the research wouldn't be as valid.

It is such a complex disorder, so very complex. The new research out is so very interesting. Yet, even given the new research, it would be interesting to see if ALL children with Autism have those certain genes just turned off or if only some due. Does it depend on the type of Autism, the severity, whether or not there is a genetic link?? So many unanswered questions.

I still would like all kids who are dx with Autism to have the same testing as that one parent on here (somewhere) did with her child. Very interesting stuff.

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Old 07-12-2008, 11:50 PM   #95
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Re: what do you make of the autism and vax connection?

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Right now the cause of autism is in a very cyclical "chicken or egg" phase. No one really knows if it's genetic, environmental, or both.

There are children who received vaxes and then suddenly showed signs of autism. But there are unvaxed kids who suddenly showed signs of autism! And then there are the kids that showed signs of autism from birth!

So, how can it only be the vaccine, if unvax'd kids are getting it? It has to have a genetic factor because some kids show signs from birth, but then why hasn't the genetic link been found? Perhaps because that link only pre-disposes them?

See how crazy this is? No wonder so many parents are scared!

I am a Speech Pathologist. Before I became a SAHM I specialized in working with children with autism and learning disabilities. I have 3 autistic nephews....one showed signs from birth, one regressed at 2 even though he'd never had a vaccine, and the third began to show signs of autism at 1 year.

I absolutely believe that autism has a genetic link. I also believe that it's entirely possible that autism has multiple causes, resulting in the same outcome.

Like any other topic, you can only do what you feel is best for your children. Vax'd kids are fine and unvax'd still have autism...until the cause(s) are determined there is no guarantee either way.
Completely 100% agree with you!!
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