Not to stir a debate, but am I the minority now?

[katiematie]

Originally Posted by Janine Ethylmercury (which is in thimerosal) is not elemental mercury. It will never become elemental mercury in your body. It is a different compound all together. It does not have the same bioavailability, side effects, mechanism, etc. etc. etc. as elemental mercury. Going with the same table salt explanation, table salt has the chemical formula of NaCl. Sodium is a metal which can be lethal if ingested in small amounts. It catches fire when exposed to water. Chlorine is an element that is found in a gaseous form. It is poisonous to humans as many know from the few chlorine gas leaks that have happened in history. Combine the two and you have table salt. Benign. Looking up the side effects of chlorine gas or sodium metal would be useless to anyone trying to find out if table salt is safe. Right? The physical and chemical properties of the individual elements do not carry over to the compound. Elements are changed through chemical reactions, and the elemental form of any given part of that compound is completely irrelevant to what the compound is. Likewise we cannot look at what elemental mercury (or what some call quicksilver, a metal) and use our knowledge of that element to say what the side effects of a compound which contains that element will be. The element has undergone a chemical reaction and ceases to be the same. Thimerosal is a mercuric compound, yes. One of the many elements that make up the chemical formula for thimerosal (C9H9HgNaO2S) is mercury (Hg), but it has no elemental mercury in it. That is an important distinction. Vaccines do not have mercury as an ingredient. They can have a compound that has mercury in its chemical formula. That knowledge in itself is utterly useless. We need to look at what thimerosal does, not mercury. The two are completely different. Just to belabor the point, if we considered elemental sodium (Na) to be a hazardous metal that doesn't make any compound containing sodium to be hazardous. Some may be, some might not be. But in neither case is the fact that sodium is part of the chemical formula the reason for the safety or lack there of. It is a result of the properties of the compound and not any individual part of the compound. Sodium is part of the chemical formula of thimerosal, and we know that sodium is not good for humans (mostly from a standpoint where sodium is violently reactive to water and would result in us burning from the inside out if ingested), but that does not mean that sodium is the reason for any lack of safety of thimerosal. We can't look at the carbon, the sodium, the mercury, the hydrogen, the sulfur, etc. that make up thimerosal and use our knowledge of those elements to make judgments on the compound. Once that reaction takes place, those elements are tied to each other until other chemical reactions release them. We need to look at the compound, not its parts and go from there. We can also look at the products, or what our body transforms said compound into and look at the safety of that. But in no case is elemental mercury being placed in our body. Now whether or not thimerosal causes autism is a whole different matter. I highly doubt it personally. There are plenty of countries who outlawed it decades ago and their cases of autism are still rising. I also think that people are paying little to know attention to our ability to diagnose autism as well as other spectrum disorders. When people quote the rates of "autism", they usually include not just autism but all spectrum disorders. That in itself raises rates. But besides that, we are simply diagnosing people more. That may not account for all rises, but it should be noted. 60 years ago there were autistic people. I'm related to one. She was never diagnosed as a child. They didn't do that then. They just called her "special" and left it at that. We have a greater understanding of autism now as well as other spectrum disorders. And that should not be ignored.

Gotcha, i think, lol.

While enviromental factors like polution, and health factors like poor nutrition can cause problems in children, I do think a major contributor to rising rates of autism, adhd, allergies and asthma are vaccines but I dont blame the metals entirely. There are a lot of really bad ingredients in vaccines that we are warned against consuming, let alone be injected directly into our bloodstream (like MSG, aspartame, formaldehyde, etc.) I think the combo shots are really bad too since they are overloading our kids systems with multiple diseases, my son reacted from the Dtap which deteriorated him emotionally and physically. Hes better now, 4 years later (detoxing, researching, etc.)

Anyway, my whole point to everything was vaccines can be very dangerous, especially with the very aggressive schedule they have now with up to 30 shots by the age of 3. The 4 A's have existed for awhile, but it hasnt been until recently that the rates are skyrocketing, right along side the growing vaccine schedule. I think the government needs to own up and either let us have a choice not to be vax'd (allowing every state to have a philisophical exemption) or make our vaccines safer and more effective (although me personally, I wouldnt vax even if they were safer since we know about the diseases and the so-called "risks"). But still, I dont think the goverment cares about us or our kids as much as they like us to think they do. JMO

[young-green-mommaof2]

Originally Posted by katiematie Gotcha, i think, lol. While enviromental factors like polution, and health factors like poor nutrition can cause problems in children, I do think a major contributor to rising rates of autism, adhd, allergies and asthma are vaccines but I dont blame the metals entirely. There are a lot of really bad ingredients in vaccines that we are warned against consuming, let alone be injected directly into our bloodstream (like MSG, aspartame, formaldehyde, etc.) I think the combo shots are really bad too since they are overloading our kids systems with multiple diseases, my son reacted from the Dtap which deteriorated him emotionally and physically. Hes better now, 4 years later (detoxing, researching, etc.) Anyway, my whole point to everything was vaccines can be very dangerous, especially with the very aggressive schedule they have now with up to 30 shots by the age of 3. The 4 A's have existed for awhile, but it hasnt been until recently that the rates are skyrocketing, right along side the growing vaccine schedule. I think the government needs to own up and either let us have a choice not to be vax'd (allowing every state to have a philisophical exemption) or make our vaccines safer and more effective (although me personally, I wouldnt vax even if they were safer since we know about the diseases and the so-called "risks"). But still, I dont think the goverment cares about us or our kids as much as they like us to think they do. JMO

[Dorothy'smom]

Originally Posted by JeDeeLenae You're definitely not in the minority. I just choose not to argue in those threads anymore.

[Dorothy'smom]

Originally Posted by Janine This is exactly what I was talking about above. As a chemist, it drives me batty. This is entirely misleading and inaccurate. Vaccines do not contain heavy metals! They contain compounds whose chemical structure has heavy metals. That might not mean much to you, but from a chemical and medical standpoint the difference is enormous! It is basic chemistry that the properties, both chemical and physical, are not maintained when an element goes through a chemical reaction. Just as table salt doesn't catch on fire when added to water (the way sodium does, which is a metal that is part of the chemical structure of table salt), heavy metals cease to be heavy metals when they undergo a chemical reaction. They are a compound at that point and any properties of the original elements are completely irrelevant and no longer pertain to the new compound. Likewise, saying what mercury does to the body is completely irrelevant seeing as how the compounds in the vaccines you speak of are NOT elemental mercury. What elemental mercury does to the body in no way influences what a mercuric compound does in the body. They are completely distinct and virtually unrelated. Not trying to pick on you, but it drives me crazy the way most who oppose vaccines go on and on about the effects of elemental mercury when there is NO elemental mercury in any vaccine, nor has there ever been. Likewise with elemental aluminum or any other "heavy metal".

I love this!! I took Chemistry for pre-nursing over the summer and learned a lot of this stuff. The Thimerosal/Mercury comparison drives me batty now that I know they are completely different. Different structure=different function is what they've been pounding into our heads in the sciences.

[Janine]

Originally Posted by katiematie Gotcha, i think, lol. While enviromental factors like polution, and health factors like poor nutrition can cause problems in children, I do think a major contributor to rising rates of autism, adhd, allergies and asthma are vaccines but I dont blame the metals entirely. There are a lot of really bad ingredients in vaccines that we are warned against consuming, let alone be injected directly into our bloodstream (like MSG, aspartame, formaldehyde, etc.) I think the combo shots are really bad too since they are overloading our kids systems with multiple diseases, my son reacted from the Dtap which deteriorated him emotionally and physically. Hes better now, 4 years later (detoxing, researching, etc.) Anyway, my whole point to everything was vaccines can be very dangerous, especially with the very aggressive schedule they have now with up to 30 shots by the age of 3. The 4 A's have existed for awhile, but it hasnt been until recently that the rates are skyrocketing, right along side the growing vaccine schedule. I think the government needs to own up and either let us have a choice not to be vax'd (allowing every state to have a philisophical exemption) or make our vaccines safer and more effective (although me personally, I wouldnt vax even if they were safer since we know about the diseases and the so-called "risks"). But still, I dont think the goverment cares about us or our kids as much as they like us to think they do. JMO

Correlation does not equal causation. I can't stress that enough. The sale of ice cream goes up in the summer, as does the crime rate. That doesn't mean that ice cream causes crime. Yes, rates of diagnosed cases of autism (i.e. not necessarily rates of autism, just rates of diagnosis), have gone up as have the number of vaccines. That does not equal causation. I could give hundreds of other things that have increased in that time period. There have been countless studies that have found no link between autism and vaccines. I think it is more important to find a reason than to hold onto an idea that has been repeatedly disproven. I would rather find what is really causing the increase in cases, assuming there is one.

[Janine]

Originally Posted by Dorothy'smom I love this!! I took Chemistry for pre-nursing over the summer and learned a lot of this stuff. The Thimerosal/Mercury comparison drives me batty now that I know they are completely different. Different structure=different function is what they've been pounding into our heads in the sciences.

Thanks.

[Dorothy'smom]

Originally Posted by Janine Correlation does not equal causation. I can't stress that enough. The sale of ice cream goes up in the summer, as does the crime rate. That doesn't mean that ice cream causes crime. Yes, rates of diagnosed cases of autism (i.e. not necessarily rates of autism, just rates of diagnosis), have gone up as have the number of vaccines. That does not equal causation. I could give hundreds of other things that have increased in that time period. There have been countless studies that have found no link between autism and vaccines. I think it is more important to find a reason than to hold onto an idea that has been repeatedly disproven. I would rather find what is really causing the increase in cases, assuming there is one.

LOL, another thing I'm learning this term! I'm taking statistics, and that is one of the worst ways of doing a study. You can't just look at two things without doing a controlled experiment and assume causation. Even if there seems to be a relationship, if there are confounding variables that you haven't taken into account, you still can't assume that because two things appear to be related, then one must have caused the other. I have had many discussions with nurses and doctors about vaccines, and I trust them... since they went to school, learned the chemistry, have access to all the studies, and know how to correctly interpret things. I am far more likely to trust the medical community than I am to trust random things I find on the internet. Just my . As far as government is concerned, well... that's another story. Politics is more of a game and nothing is ever exactly as they say it is.

With all that said, I like the way you think!

[momtocole&parker]

Originally Posted by kidpsych2be Yeah - you're definitely not in the minority. I love my Obama.

me too!

[katiematie]

Originally Posted by Dorothy'smom LOL, another thing I'm learning this term! I'm taking statistics, and that is one of the worst ways of doing a study. You can't just look at two things without doing a controlled experiment and assume causation. Even if there seems to be a relationship, if there are confounding variables that you haven't taken into account, you still can't assume that because two things appear to be related, then one must have caused the other. I have had many discussions with nurses and doctors about vaccines, and I trust them... since they went to school, learned the chemistry, have access to all the studies, and know how to correctly interpret things. I am far more likely to trust the medical community than I am to trust random things I find on the internet. Just my . As far as government is concerned, well... that's another story. Politics is more of a game and nothing is ever exactly as they say it is. With all that said, I like the way you think!

Its not "me" personally who is saying there is a connection between the 2.
There have been large scale studies done that proove a link between the 2 (vaccines and the 4 A's). Some of the ingredients in vaccines are neuro-toxins, others are just plain poisonous, some are gross and who knows what they do to our body. I dont see how anyone can look at what's in vaccines and think they are even remotely safe, especially the AMOUNT of vaccines our children are given at such a young, vulnerable age. I dont need a degree to tell me that my son was a vaccine injury victim and his ADHD (now cured) and autistic tendencies (now cured) and developmental delays were caused because of his shots. I dont need a degree to tell me how severely my husband reacted after his basic training shots (perfectly healthy beforehand). I dont need a degree to look at past statistics that show vaccines didnt work in many cases, I dont need a degree to show me how dangerous the chemicals and ingredients in vaccines can be, I dont need a degree to read credible information from medical journals and the CDC pink book. Its funny how some people turn a blind eye on the stuff against vaccines yet I have yet to see someone give me some info on how good vaccines have been for us? No they didnt reduce death from diseases, that was already happening way before they were introduced, no they dont prevent the disease in most cases, yes they have been connected with auto immune disorders, yes there has been MANY injuries and deaths due to vaccines, I could go on and on.

We have VAERS for a reason, and even they only receive less than 10% of actual vaccine injury claims. My son's was not reported, my husband's wasn't either. I've had several friends who's babies had reactions after shots (very high fevers that lasted for days, severe diarrhea, vomitting, insomnia, lathargy, etc) and they werent reported either. They got the same BS I got from the doctors, that it "cant" be the vaccines and must have been something they caught in the office. Yea right! I dont trust doctors who are thrown parties and luncheons and given "incentives" by the vaccine companies themselves. My own brother who works for CPS says they even come to THEM incentive luncheons. They make BILLIONS for a reason and Ill have no part of that

[Dorothy'smom]

I definitely don't turn a blind eye with anything that concerns my children and HAVE done my own research, and this is exactly why I don't normally get into these debates. I don't think either side is going to change the other's mind.

Anyway, OP, just wanted to let you know that you're not alone, but on this board, it seems to be swayed heavily to the non-vax, not trusting gov't., big corporation side. Most people just choose not to get into debates on it unless they're passionate about it. Me, I tend to hold my beliefs and let others hold theirs.