View Poll Results: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people don't?
Yes, primarily because of herd immunity. 118 27.83%
Yes, but not primarily because of herd immunity. 24 5.66%
No, but I wish they would. 40 9.43%
No, vaccines are a personal choice. 134 31.60%
I do not vaccinate my children. 85 20.05%
I like polls and want to see the results without answering. 23 5.42%
Voters: 424. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-17-2012, 08:44 PM   #181
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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Originally Posted by Hungry Caterpillar View Post
This is the growth medium to foster the vaccine. They are cells that have been kept going from, yes, human cells from years and years ago.

This is vaguely similar to saying that the carrot you are eating is actually composed of poop, because manure was in the fertilizer used 30 years ago.

I have to assume you are anti-poop eating? If so, you should not use fertilizer, nor really any outdoor soil because an animal may have pooped there.

And, the above came across as way more snarky and rude than intended. I just want to make the comparison, because the growth matter is important in that using human cells are more advantageous in many ways than using other animals' cells, but does not make the vaccine "bad."
I understand, but they are replicated human cells that aren't necessarily removed from the final product. The top of the CDC document even states that they can be there in trace amounts.

This is aside from the fact that it is morally reprehensible.

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Old 05-17-2012, 08:50 PM   #182
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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Here's information that seems to contradict what you're saying. The CDC Link I sent shows the human cells in the ingredient lists of the vaccines.

http://www.wvve.info/issues/abortion.html
Here is a link to my most recent post about fetal cells. http://www.diaperswappers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1359521&highlight=manure

Your link does not say there are any human cells in vaccines. It says that there are cells in a line of cells descended from aborted human fetal cells are used in the production of certain vaccines. There is an enormous distinction. The distinction is so important that the Catholic Church (which is very much a prolife organization) approves the use of these vaccines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hungry Caterpillar View Post
This is the growth medium to foster the vaccine. They are cells that have been kept going from, yes, human cells from years and years ago.

This is vaguely similar to saying that the carrot you are eating is actually composed of poop, because manure was in the fertilizer used 30 years ago.

I have to assume you are anti-poop eating? If so, you should not use fertilizer, nor really any outdoor soil because an animal may have pooped there.

And, the above came across as way more snarky and rude than intended. I just want to make the comparison, because the growth matter is important in that using human cells are more advantageous in many ways than using other animals' cells, but does not make the vaccine "bad."
That's funny. Not too long ago, I used manure in my analogy.

First of all - There is no human tissue in vaccines.

Very simplified - These cells are used to produce live attenuated vaccines. Because the vaccines are not killed virus, the vaccine needs to grow and live. To do so, it needs host cells. So, about 50 years ago, vaccine developers took cells from an aborted fetus. They have continued to grow those lines of cells - cells reproducing and splitting and continuing, etc. So, the virus which becomes the vaccine grows in these cells which are then removed from the growth medium and formulated into a vaccine.

Again simplified, but you wouldn't include cow manure in the list of ingredients for a carrot cake even though it was the fertilizer used to help the carrots grow that were eventually turned into a cake. But, because we're talking about vaccines and anything that comes remotely close to them is listed, the growth media is listed.


Here's a nice article with a bit more detail and science, without being overwhelmingly scientific.

To acknowledge, there are ethical issues involved in those vaccines that are manufactured using human cell lines. The Catholic Church's statement is that vaccines are important and that use of these vaccines is far removed from the ethical problems and is therefore approved and in fact encouraged. The Catholic Church's stance however may not fit with individual's beliefs or other faith's beliefs. But, wanted to toss that out there into the mix.
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:52 PM   #183
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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There is absolutely no aborted fetal matter being injected into anyone's baby. This is a lie perpetuated by anti-vaccine websites that doesn't even make logical sense. I have explained this many times since this board came into existance. If you are interested, do a search for my name and fetal tissue and you will find several posts in various vaccination threads explaining further.
I didn't say anything about aborted fetus cells, nor do I read any anti-vax websites.
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:53 PM   #184
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I wasn't being condescending at all! Maybe it's sort of lost in translation (you know, speak to type?). I'm sorry it was interpreted that way. I do, however, find your above post a little rude ...
I don't think it's strange at all, in fact, as the vaccination rates and the number of outbreaks and people infected has increased, so has the general population mass. It seems pretty natural to me.
I believe in herd immunity. FTR, your unvaxed kid doesn't bother me. A decision not to vax based on the idea that these diseases "aren't serious" or are "eradicated" is what bothers me. Or that the risk of getting those diseases less serious than a complication from a vax (which kind of implies that one is relying on those who ARE willing to take the risk). I don't know why YOU personally don't vax, so I'm not trying to make a statement about that.
I think you could leave your snarky at the door. When we are all educated people with opinions we are allowed to speak them without being rude to one another. I won't blinkie, but I am sending out good vibes.

The thing is though, that ALL of these diseases AREN'T serious or life-threatening. Many of them are just annoyances that can easily be dealt with and overcome, providing lifetime immunities. Of course there is no guarantee that something generally mild (chicken pox) wouldn't be devastating or deadly to one child in many thousands, but so can strep throat, or a staph infection (and these are getting worse by the day thanks to our dependence on antibiotics). We cannot pretend that we can protect our kids from every illness! And I'll take my chances of chicken pox seriously harming my child over the vaccine risk any day.
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:55 PM   #185
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She wasn't saying that bw'ing isn't putting a baby in a bubble. She was commenting on a post that the mama said the kid is only worn when out in public and they only leave the house about 2 days a week.
Yes, that was what I was commenting on.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:03 PM   #186
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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I didn't say anything about aborted fetus cells, nor do I read any anti-vax websites.
hmm, I must have clicked on your post for some reason. Didn't mean to quote it.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:06 PM   #187
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^ It's ok, it happens
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:19 PM   #188
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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The thing is though, that ALL of these diseases AREN'T serious or life-threatening. Many of them are just annoyances that can easily be dealt with and overcome, providing lifetime immunities. Of course there is no guarantee that something generally mild (chicken pox) wouldn't be devastating or deadly to one child in many thousands, but so can strep throat, or a staph infection (and these are getting worse by the day thanks to our dependence on antibiotics). We cannot pretend that we can protect our kids from every illness! And I'll take my chances of chicken pox seriously harming my child over the vaccine risk any day.
Good point. I guess I was more speaking to the serious ones (i.e. polio). I agree about some of the other illnesses (like pox). Maybe there will be a strep throat vax soon so we can all debate the efficacy and obligation of that

ETA That's not a condescending giggle ... just a real giggle.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:22 PM   #189
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

MMRV ingredients (from CDC website): sucrose, hydrolygzed gelatin, sorbitol, monosodium L-glutamate, sodium phosphate dibasic, human albumin, sodium bicarbonate, potassium phosphate mono basic, potassium chloride, potassium phosphate dibasic, neomycin, bovine calf serum, chick embryo cell culture, WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts, MRC-5 cells

THREE human products and 2 animal products. I understand about the growth medium because I'm not an idiot, but at the top of the ingredient list, the CDC states: "...substances used during the manufacturing process...that are removed from the final product and present only in trace quantities"

Yes, it may be trace quantities, but trace amounts of human tissue is more than I want injected in my babies' bodies.

The thing is, neither measles, mumps NOR rubella are normally life-threatening.

FWIW, I'm Catholic, so I know the church's position on life.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:31 PM   #190
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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Good point. I guess I was more speaking to the serious ones (i.e. polio). I agree about some of the other illnesses (like pox). Maybe there will be a strep throat vax soon so we can all debate the efficacy and obligation of that

ETA That's not a condescending giggle ... just a real giggle.
Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised. I'd be inclined to vaccinate for the more life-threatening diseases. If I had infants today, I'd consider DTaP (probably not when recommended, but later). The DTP was just too risky IMO.

I just don't think they're doing us any favors trying to "protect" us from everything. It's kinda like anti-bacterial hand soap and gel. We are killing off the good stuff and creating superbugs that can't be killed by any antibiotics. It all goes hand in hand. When the next epidemic rolls around, it'll be a doozie, because we won't have drugs that'll kill it. Good, strong immune systems will be our only hope.
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