View Poll Results: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people don't?
Yes, primarily because of herd immunity. 118 27.83%
Yes, but not primarily because of herd immunity. 24 5.66%
No, but I wish they would. 40 9.43%
No, vaccines are a personal choice. 134 31.60%
I do not vaccinate my children. 85 20.05%
I like polls and want to see the results without answering. 23 5.42%
Voters: 424. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-25-2012, 08:09 PM   #301
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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Originally Posted by Hope4More View Post
What changed your mind?
A good friend of mine. I'm in university, about to graduate with a degree in biophysical anthropology (emphasis in primate evolution), so I'm a scientist. He gently asked me one day why I was opposed to vaccines. I told him all the reasons; high numbers of side effects, too many vaccines in such a short amount of time (especially compared to other countries), potential risk for triggering autism or other behavioral disorders, the benefits of the natural immune system, the insanely high survival rates of VPDs, the suspicions that vaccines weren't responsible for decreasing rates of VPDs but sanitation was, etc.

He linked me to VAERS and similar sites (all reputable), showing me how few individuals suffer side effects when you look at the entire country. He linked me to every single vaccine schedule in the western world (since it's always said that "other countries" delay/are selective), pointing out that they're all more or less identical, as well as information on why the vaccine schedule is the way it is (the timing is critical and well-planned/studied). The only study showing a risk of autism was dismissed.

Beyond that, he just encouraged me to use my scientific brain. Why was I ignoring credible, peer-reviewed, long-studied research in terms of scare tactic websites that look like they were made in 1995? It's because of the appeal to emotions, largely through fudged facts (i.e. the vax schedules in "other countries" that delay until age 2 and then are selective...utterly false) and anecdotal stories. For example, if someone has a seizure two months after a vaccine, there is no evidence or indication that the vaccine caused it, and you see a lot of those stories.

As I said...I can empathize with the "other side" since I subscribed so completely to it.

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Old 06-25-2012, 08:22 PM   #302
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

^ I find that really interesting that you're in school for science and yet at a time "went against the grain". I was the opposite. I also went to school for science and medicine and was pro-vax, but then after reactions in my oldest son decided for *our* family it was best not to vaccinate anymore. However, I'm not anti-vax or anything, but I'm no longer pro-vax either. I think each family has to decide what is best for them.
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:25 AM   #303
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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Originally Posted by Hungry Caterpillar View Post
I very much agree that there should be exclusions from public school for simple religious choice and lying about religion to not vaccinate.

To the first bolded, you can easily flip this and say that if the government, for the greater good of the people and being the majority voice of the people (as the majority of people do vaccinate in this country) made the decision for you, and you must vaccinate -- tough, that's life.

Except, the government doesn't say that. You are indeed allowed to do as you will and follow your religion, but your religion is your choice, and your choices in life have consequences. If you are tied to your religion then you will accept the consequences. This is to the point of your second and third bolded - just because you believe that you should be allowed in public school unvaccinated doesn't mean others believe that, and they are allowed to their opinions, and someday perhaps, to their legislation.

Freedom of religion in this country still has parameters. If your religion involved sexually abusing a child, or sacrificing someone, or marrying vastly underaged girls, you wouldn't be permitted to exercise those facets of your religion. The compromise of allowing people to not vaccinate and then seek out their own schooling because they are not permitted into public school is indeed a compromise.
I get what you're saying, and like I stated earlier, I'm not sure how I feel about access to public things like school. My kids won't be going to public school so I am really on the fence.
I'm talking about the choice to not vaccinate period. A PP mentioned only allowing medical exemptions. It's outrageous to me to think that in order to live in this country I'd be forcibly injected 'for the better good'. I don't live in a socialist country for a reason.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:20 AM   #304
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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I can't think of a single decision I've ever made that hasn't impacted someone else at some point. That's life.
To forcibly inject people with something they feel is against their religion and/or unsafe because some of the population feels like it's a good (but not able to be proven) idea.
There is plenty of scientific evidence that vaccination is a good and proven method for reducing specific disease.

Smallpox is a good example of the success of vaccination. Smallpox didn't just disappear due to disease cycles. It had existed in historical records for over 3000 years. While it is true that it had decreased in part due to advances in understanding of germ theory and sanitation, it still existed and was a devastating disease. Vaccination got rid of smallpox entirely.

Unfortunately, there are people who will not look at the scientific evidence objectively and will continue to believe that the disease that had devastated populations for thousands of years just wore out and went away. There is little that can be done to convince someone who does not believe the evidence that exists. Similar evidence exists for other VPDs in terms of decreases in incidence and mortality. It is important to continue to present this information because some people are simply uninformed and have "heard" bad things about vaccines. They can be educated and change their mind. However, those who have seen the evidence and still prefer the mysterious disappearance theories likely will not change their minds.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:59 AM   #305
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

Well, I'm a proud socialist so that's another debate Anyhow, it will be impossible for non-vaxers to understand my POV. The government forces us to do things to keep us safe. Wearing seatbelts, for example. Wearing them isn't always safe, there are freak situations where it ends up more severely injuring or killing someone, when they would have likely survived without the seatbelt. However, 99.99999% of the time, the pros of seatbelt wearing FAR outweigh the cons. The same is true of vaccination. True, damaging side effects are incredibly rare and the peer-reviewed decades upon decades of study show that vaccines are safe. Anecdotal stories about children who have seizures or other problems weeks after vaccination do not convince me that the vaccine caused it, nor does it convince scientists.

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Originally Posted by z2akids View Post
There is plenty of scientific evidence that vaccination is a good and proven method for reducing specific disease.

Smallpox is a good example of the success of vaccination. Smallpox didn't just disappear due to disease cycles. It had existed in historical records for over 3000 years. While it is true that it had decreased in part due to advances in understanding of germ theory and sanitation, it still existed and was a devastating disease. Vaccination got rid of smallpox entirely.

Unfortunately, there are people who will not look at the scientific evidence objectively and will continue to believe that the disease that had devastated populations for thousands of years just wore out and went away. There is little that can be done to convince someone who does not believe the evidence that exists. Similar evidence exists for other VPDs in terms of decreases in incidence and mortality. It is important to continue to present this information because some people are simply uninformed and have "heard" bad things about vaccines. They can be educated and change their mind. However, those who have seen the evidence and still prefer the mysterious disappearance theories likely will not change their minds.
The bubonic plague still exists, for goodness sake. I'm personally VERY glad previous generations were so adamant about smallpox vaccination so that it's not a threat to myself, my children, my grandchildren. I'm also glad because that vaccination left a scar and I'm vain...so happy I didn't have to get it
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:17 AM   #306
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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Originally Posted by MyLovely View Post
Well, I'm a proud socialist so that's another debate Anyhow, it will be impossible for non-vaxers to understand my POV. The government forces us to do things to keep us safe. Wearing seatbelts, for example. Wearing them isn't always safe, there are freak situations where it ends up more severely injuring or killing someone, when they would have likely survived without the seatbelt. However, 99.99999% of the time, the pros of seatbelt wearing FAR outweigh the cons. The same is true of vaccination. True, damaging side effects are incredibly rare and the peer-reviewed decades upon decades of study show that vaccines are safe. Anecdotal stories about children who have seizures or other problems weeks after vaccination do not convince me that the vaccine caused it, nor does it convince scientists.



The bubonic plague still exists, for goodness sake. I'm personally VERY glad previous generations were so adamant about smallpox vaccination so that it's not a threat to myself, my children, my grandchildren. I'm also glad because that vaccination left a scar and I'm vain...so happy I didn't have to get it
To the bolded, I don't agree. I think many non-vaxxers can understand the POV of a pro-vaxxer, I certainly get it. And I do think that goes both ways. Because I have met my fair share of pro-vaxxers who could not fathom why I would not vaccinate my children even when knowing about my son's serious reactions. Even our own Pediatrician agrees that not vaccinating is what is best for *my* family and does not take on this pro-vaccination stance. Everyone is so different that you (general you) can't really say "anti-vaxxers do/know/say this, and pro-vaxxers do/know/say this" and not everyone is anti or pro, they just do what is best for *their* family.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:12 PM   #307
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

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To the bolded, I don't agree. I think many non-vaxxers can understand the POV of a pro-vaxxer, I certainly get it. And I do think that goes both ways. Because I have met my fair share of pro-vaxxers who could not fathom why I would not vaccinate my children even when knowing about my son's serious reactions. Even our own Pediatrician agrees that not vaccinating is what is best for *my* family and does not take on this pro-vaccination stance. Everyone is so different that you (general you) can't really say "anti-vaxxers do/know/say this, and pro-vaxxers do/know/say this" and not everyone is anti or pro, they just do what is best for *their* family.
Wow, I totally meant to carry on that point What I meant is that people who choose not to vaccinate at all have a specific reason for choosing that path; history of reaction, prizing the natural immune system over a vaccinated one, fear of reaction, belief they cause harm, belief the individual should choose, etc. If anti-vaxers didn't believe one or more of the things I listed, they'd vaccinate, you know? So maybe "understand" wasn't the best word to use.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:27 PM   #308
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I get what you're saying and I also think there is a difference in anti-vax and non-vax.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:38 PM   #309
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I get what you're saying and I also think there is a difference in anti-vax and non-vax.
Yup. I am not anti vax at all. We dont vaccinate our children and it is our right to do so.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:32 PM   #310
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I get what you're saying and I also think there is a difference in anti-vax and non-vax.
This is true (for me at least). Each family and child has different needs, and adjustments for those needs. Had DS not had medical issues, I would've delayed and fully or selectively vax'd (never got around to that decision before ped and I decided it would be best not to at all). I'll make an individualized choice for the next child also.

There will always be adamant beliefs in either direction, but not all people are for or against it in /all/ cases. Most I've known (vax and non) are reasonable and have their view for their family, not across the board. Across the board for nearly any decision can be a dangerous view, and can often cloud judgment to the point of never reassessing or reconsidering stance (talk about a societal stand still LOL).

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