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Old 06-02-2010, 01:28 AM   #481
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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ouch, thats harsh
I agree that the above was harsh, but I have to say that I feel the same way. Part of my anti-circ thought was "how will this look to my older child (dd)?" I didnt see cosmetic surgery on a newborn as an easy to explain thing. I do feel that my kids are perfect the way they come and I wouldnt want to alter them. (unless there is an eraser for the word 'why')

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Old 06-03-2010, 05:34 AM   #482
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

I wrote this last night for another message board and it would be a shame not to use it here as well:

I just want to say that I used to think the way many of you do.

I believed that the circumcised penis looked better and that it involved a simple procedure to remove unnecessary skin, which was much less painful to perform on a baby than an adult. I believed that the circumcised penis was cleaner and less likely to get infected or contract sexually transmitted diseases or cancer. I heard stories about men who “had to be circumcised later in life” and I heard about young men who were unhappy growing up intact because of peer pressure from circumcised men and I wondered why their parents didn’t spare them that discomfort by having them circumcised at birth.

Then I learned that everything I believed about circumcision was untrue.
Technically, the “looks better” argument cannot be untrue because preference is subjective. However, knowing what I now know about the functions of the foreskin, I would give anything to have my husband uncircumcised so that I could experience sex as it was meant to be. Besides, once the penis is erect, there is very little difference in appearance anyway. The fact that the foreskin has functions (protecting the penis and aiding in sex) implies that it is not “unnecessary skin” and in fact everything I have read/watched has led me to realize that this procedure is MORE painful for a newborn baby than it is for a consenting adult. The only ‘benefit’ to doing it young is that newborn babies are less likely to consciously remember the trauma. That doesn’t mean that the trauma will not be remembered subconsciously in many cases. While it might be true that males without a foreskin are less likely to get infections or cancer of the foreskin, the same argument can be made for the removal of any other body part at birth. Babies who have their tonsils removed will be less likely to get tonsillitis. Appendicitis could be eliminated if all babies had their appendix removed at birth. But we don’t remove those things because it is risky and unnecessary to remove healthy tissue in the absence of a problem. Circumcision also carries risks, including DEATH, but these risks are minimized by health professionals who promote the practice. In my opinion, the risks of the procedure are far greater than the risks of problems that circumcision ‘prevents’ (or reduces likelihood of). No baby has ever died from not having a circumcision. Besides, most of the problems that circumcision helps to prevent (i.e., UTIs) can easily be treated without circumcision. As for STDs, condoms are a MUCH better way to prevent transmission. But I know that at least for my circumcised husband, the sensitivity of his penis has been reduced to the point that he cannot feel anything during sex if he is wearing a condom, so he would rather have no sex at all than sex with a condom. I know this is not true of all circumcised men, but I have talked to other women who have noticed that it is easier to get an intact man than a circumcised man to use a condom. Finally, all those boys and men who “had to be circumcised later in life” were likely victims of misinformation from doctors who do not understand intact care. I hear cases all the time of doctors advising mothers to retract their baby’s foreskin regularly (bad idea) and/or pressuring them to circumcise if the foreskin is not fully retractable by the age of 2, even though it is completely unnecessary at that age. Unfortunately, those who do have their foreskin retracted early are more likely to develop problems leading to the need to circumcise later. It wouldn’t have been “needed” if they had just been left alone. And even then, there are other treatment options to consider besides circumcision, although many seem to choose that due to social pressure. I do understand that in our generation, a lot of young men felt self-conscious about being intact if they were in the minority but thankfully the practice of infant circumcision is dying out and in this generation, intact boys will be the majority in many places (like here), or at least a lot more common than in the past.

I am happy that I learned all of this information before I had a son. However, for me the information was largely irrelevant as I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, where circumcision is no longer even offered to new parents. It is not a choice that we have to make for our son, nor should it be for any parent to make that choice, as it is not our choice to make.
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Old 06-03-2010, 07:07 AM   #483
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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10. There are no other cosmetic surgeries that parents are permitted to perform on their children without the child's consent.

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Not to rain on your parade, but THIS statement is ABSOLUTELY not true!!! My son was born with a larger than normal tongue, and when he was 13 months old, he had a tongue reduction. This is considered a cosmetic surgery...but also serves to prevent major jaw surgery when he is a teenager. I don't think he'll be mad at us for having it done. I also know he isn't the only one who has had this kind of "cosmetic surgery"...and I know for a FACT there are other cosmetic surgeries (particularly craniofacial surgeries) that children go through ALL THE TIME without their consent. Circumcision or not, parents decide what is in the best interest of their child...and sometimes that includes surgical proceedures.

I don't have a problem with making a list of reasons not to circumcise your child, that's not my point. Including FALSE information for the sake of convincing people to agree with you makes you loose credibility.
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:46 AM   #484
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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Not to rain on your parade, but THIS statement is ABSOLUTELY not true!!! My son was born with a larger than normal tongue, and when he was 13 months old, he had a tongue reduction. This is considered a cosmetic surgery...but also serves to prevent major jaw surgery when he is a teenager. I don't think he'll be mad at us for having it done. I also know he isn't the only one who has had this kind of "cosmetic surgery"...and I know for a FACT there are other cosmetic surgeries (particularly craniofacial surgeries) that children go through ALL THE TIME without their consent. Circumcision or not, parents decide what is in the best interest of their child...and sometimes that includes surgical proceedures.

I don't have a problem with making a list of reasons not to circumcise your child, that's not my point. Including FALSE information for the sake of convincing people to agree with you makes you loose credibility.

Is there any other way to prevent the need for jaw surgery as a teenager? Does it affect the function of his mouth (chewing, speaking, etc.?) I am guessing that without this surgery, he would definitely have to have surgery later to provide normal functioning. Circumcision is definitely NOT the same. There is nothing that can happen to a foreskin that can be diagnosed in infancy and cannot be treated with much less invasive measures. You said that your child's surgery was BOTH cosmetic AND functional - circumcision is ONLY cosmetic, and involves a sense of aesthetics that is not shared by all. The fact that the parents find a circumcised penis to be more attractive is totally beside the point - the child himself and his sexual partners may not agree. Many people find a circumcised penis to be LESS attractive - but I am guessing that there aren't many people out there who would find an abnormally large tongue MORE attractive.
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Old 06-03-2010, 08:09 PM   #485
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

His enlarged tongue did not have an impact on his speech, or ability to eat, drink etc...it really was a surgery that had to do with preventing jaw surgery and preventing his teeth from splaying in an unattractive way. Even jaw surgery is not functionally/medically required...but by the time a child with an enlarged tongue is a teenager, the jaw has become overgrown to accomodate the tongue and it becomes a cosmetic issue/self-esteem issue. Are there potentially some practical benefits to the tongue reduction besides purely cosmetic benefits? Sure! It helped my son drool less...but even that, in time, he would have been able to have better control of without surgery. Bascially, a child could totally live without the tongue surgery...just like a child could live without having their ears surgically tacked back (if they stick out badly), or other similar proceedures. I'm not saying I agree/disagree with circumcision, I'm really just saying that you can't make a blanket statement that circumcision is the ONLY cosmetic surgery a child could have without their consent. THAT is my ONLY point and I stand by it.

ETA: I did not say that his surgery was cosmetic and functional. I said it was cosmetic and was to prevent jaw surgery later in life, which I have clarified is also cosmetic. There may be functional benefits...but the functional benefits are NOT the reason for the surgery. You could actually argue that circumcision has "functional" benefits as well...but that is really not the reason why people circumcise their sons.
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:48 AM   #486
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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His enlarged tongue did not have an impact on his speech, or ability to eat, drink etc...it really was a surgery that had to do with preventing jaw surgery and preventing his teeth from splaying in an unattractive way. Even jaw surgery is not functionally/medically required...but by the time a child with an enlarged tongue is a teenager, the jaw has become overgrown to accomodate the tongue and it becomes a cosmetic issue/self-esteem issue. Are there potentially some practical benefits to the tongue reduction besides purely cosmetic benefits? Sure! It helped my son drool less...but even that, in time, he would have been able to have better control of without surgery. Bascially, a child could totally live without the tongue surgery...just like a child could live without having their ears surgically tacked back (if they stick out badly), or other similar proceedures. I'm not saying I agree/disagree with circumcision, I'm really just saying that you can't make a blanket statement that circumcision is the ONLY cosmetic surgery a child could have without their consent. THAT is my ONLY point and I stand by it.

ETA: I did not say that his surgery was cosmetic and functional. I said it was cosmetic and was to prevent jaw surgery later in life, which I have clarified is also cosmetic. There may be functional benefits...but the functional benefits are NOT the reason for the surgery. You could actually argue that circumcision has "functional" benefits as well...but that is really not the reason why people circumcise their sons.
Fine - there are other cosmetic procedures parents can choose. I was unaware of any such tongue issue and stand corrected on that. I had been thinking of things like breast augmentation, etc.

But I stand by my assertion that circumcision is fundamentally different from what you are describing (or pinning ears.) When operated on at birth/infancy, the tongue surgery prevents a bigger and more difficult cosmetic surgery that would very likely be chosen by the person himself. Neither of these oral surgeries changes the functioning of the mouth. Circumcision meets none of these tests - it involves the aesthetic sense of someone OTHER than the patient, it does not prevent a bigger or more difficult surgery, and it most definitely alters functioning of the penis. If left to his own, most men do not choose to be circumcised as adults, which leaves us with one of the main justifications for circumcision - "We have to do it now while he can't choose, b/c if we give him the choice, he won't choose circumcision." This, to me, is the most specious and nauseating argument - the parents who employ it are admitting that they are forcing a decision they are comfortable with on their child b/c of their very ability to force it on him.

So now that we have nitpicked this to death - does it mean that people should, indeed, be allowed to circumcise their children?
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:56 AM   #487
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

Also, I would say that an enlarged tongue is an abnormal feature, so the cosmetic surgery is to fix a birth defect.

A foreskin is not a birth defect. It is normal for boys to be born with them. Why perform cosmetic surgery on a normal body part?
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:06 AM   #488
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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Also, I would say that an enlarged tongue is an abnormal feature, so the cosmetic surgery is to fix a birth defect.

A foreskin is not a birth defect. It is normal for boys to be born with them. Why perform cosmetic surgery on a normal body part?
Wow - thanks for stating it so succinctly! Being pg really addles my brain.
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Old 06-19-2010, 11:19 AM   #489
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

Oh, I'm subbing to this so I can show my DH it if we ever have a little boy =) I might use this as reference.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:00 PM   #490
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

I didn't read all the prior pages, but man am I hoping for a baby girl. My husband wants to circ if we have a son, and I'm just not ready to agree or make a choice on the matter. My husband is pretty set on it, and unfortunately you can read information and facts that support both sides. I'm just honestly not okay with purposely hurting our child at an age when his whole world has been flipped upside down. I mean how scary must it be for a newborn, going from a nice warm place where you are carried around. To the outside world where you are being passed from one person to the next being laid down by yourself, then within a few hours feeling extreme pain, it's bad enough some shots give them shots, and test their blood, etc.

AGH! one more time. I hope it's a girl.

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