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Old 02-01-2012, 09:42 AM   #121
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Re: Give me good stories about vaccinations

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Originally Posted by z2akids View Post
The problem is that people come along and make blanket statements

- unvaxed kids are healthier
- VPD infections were declining prior to vaccination
- etc.

The problem is that these blanket statements never have anything to back them up. Lots of, "in my experience" or "I read it somewhere once." It is pretty easy to find published, peer reviewed research that either contradicts these statements.

I know that not everyone has a background in biological sciences. I also know that there are many women here who do not trust the scientific community. I however believe that there is a reason that the scientific method is a process with many checks and balances. I trust that process as opposed to general stories on the internet.
Agreed...and certainly more than "mommy instincts".

I should just follow you, Janine, & a few others around DS & just post after everything you write .

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Old 02-01-2012, 09:59 AM   #122
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Re: Give me good stories about vaccinations

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Well, I would love it if you did. Or at least said which book you found it in. Seems every vax thread that pops up someone makes this claim, and yet, surprise, no one ever comes back with the source.
Really? I don't follow these threads often. Sorry. I have read 8 different books (some of which have been passed along to others, many of which are in my ginormous stash of books) on the subject so please excuse me that I have the knowledge and not the specific source atm.

It is not as if the source is going to change anyone's minds, though I do understand your frustration if this is a recurring issue that you see for people when they are arguing their views.

My main point is that we as mothers each have to do what we have discovered is the best thing to suit the needs of our families. Everyone's situations are different. We are the only ones who are responsible for our choices and the consequences.

My entire lifestyle is different b/c we don't vac. It was not an easy choice for me. I am bfing til dd is at least 3 (and that is a JOB, esp with lo due in August I will be tandem nursing and I'm nursing while prego now ), we eat completely differently b/c we don't vac in order to keep their immune systems in tip top shape.

I'm not saying either way is the sure fire answer. Either way is hard and a huge choice. But it's our choice and I can respect both sides of the fence.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:12 AM   #123
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Re: Give me good stories about vaccinations

Janine, what type of scientist are you? I just read your siggy!

ETA: So this is what you were referring to?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ts-most-naked/
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:22 AM   #124
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Re: Give me good stories about vaccinations

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Originally Posted by happysmileylady View Post
Among those that I have discussed it with and my own family...yes, exactly.

In my own 3 kids, my oldest is 16, completely and fully vaxed, never received a drop of BM and is RARELY sick, still to this day. I myself was fully vaxed as a child, and am rarely sick, also fully formula fed. My brother's kids, fully vaxed, never a drop of breastmilk, rarely sick (course, they are homeschooled so I dunno if that counts?) My sister's kid however only received a couple of shots early on, was exclusively BF'd for 9 months and was in the doc's office a lot as a baby, though at 5, he's pretty healthy now. My best friend's little boy was ebf for his whole first year, never a vaccine, ALWAYS sick. Yes, that is my experience that those who are bf'd and not vaxed are NOT the healthier group.
[Peer reviewed citations needed].
Do you have any peer reviewed based citations for both claims? I would love to see it:

1.) Fully vaxed & FF'ed children are healthier.
2.) Non-vaxed, EBF children are not healthier.

In short to say, we non-vaxers are always asked for "Peer reviewed" materials. So I would love some for these thoughts.

Personally I don't think "Peer Reviewed/Government is looking out for our best interest" are the be all/end all to many things. [Just my own ]
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:41 AM   #125
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Re: Give me good stories about vaccinations

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Originally Posted by jemilyon View Post
Janine, what type of scientist are you? I just read your siggy!

ETA: So this is what you were referring to?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ts-most-naked/
That article says that vaccines caused the decline in rates of VPDs. That is the opposite of what you indicated your research said. I didn't go so far as to look at the original data used for that article. However, needless to say, it is not a reviewed scientific paper. There are plenty of other sources for information on the decline of VPDs in the wake of vaccination. However, Janine was asking for sources of posts that claimed this isn't true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra View Post
[Peer reviewed citations needed].
Do you have any peer reviewed based citations for both claims? I would love to see it:

1.) Fully vaxed & FF'ed children are healthier.
2.) Non-vaxed, EBF children are not healthier.

In short to say, we non-vaxers are always asked for "Peer reviewed" materials. So I would love some for these thoughts.

Personally I don't think "Peer Reviewed/Government is looking out for our best interest" are the be all/end all to many things. [Just my own ]
I'm not the poster you quoted. However, I do not believe that there are any peer reviewed studies that definitively connect overall health to vaccines. I think the poster you quoted was trying to show another poster that just because her experience was that unvaxed were healthier, that doesn't mean it is true and that her experience has been different.

There are too many variables to overall health and wellness to do such a study, IMHO. The advent of modern vaccination and other medical advancements (antibiotics, surgeries, understanding of the human genome, etc.) as well as changes in the lifestyles of the majority of Americans (the decrease in multigenerational homes, etc.) have all contributed to changes in overall health of mankind.

Vaccines are not meant to make you healthier overall. They are simply meant to prevent you from contracting a specific disease. Contrary to some of the other posters (who claim to "have read it somewhere") there is abundant evidence that vaccinations have resulted in a tremendous decrease in VPDs and that decreases in vaccination rates results in an increase in those same diseases.

Peer reviewed and government looking out for us are two entirely different subjects. Research scientists are not government lackeys. Research scientists using the appropriate scientific method can have their results reproduced by other scientists. The research team that finds the actual cause for autism (which is likely a first step to preventing and curing) will very likely wind up very rich and their names will be in textbooks for generations to come. The University or pharm company that they are attached to will be looking at billions of dollars in grants and profits from treatments. I do not believe the idea that "big pharma" and the government are suppressing information that vaccines cause autism or other problems. There is simply too much money and fame to be made from proving that and then treating it.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:47 AM   #126
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Re: Give me good stories about vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by jemilyon View Post
Janine, what type of scientist are you? I just read your siggy!

ETA: So this is what you were referring to?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ts-most-naked/
My degree is in chemistry (research in organic synthesis), but I work in physics.

Anyhow, that cite does show the difference between infection rate graphs and death rate graphs quite well. Notice how death rate decreased before the vaccines, but the infection rate held steady, and then plummeted after the vaccine. Often people cite the death rate graphs (as can be found on many anti-vax sites) as some sort of proof that the various diseases were in decline before the vaccine. But if you look at the infection data it is quite clear that while we learned to treat people and prevent death, the disease itself did not wane until the vaccines were introduced. Big difference. The death rate graphs give a false picture, and sadly most people don't bother to read the axis and really think about it. Instead they look at the graph and are misled (as these sites are aiming to do) into believing the disease was already on its way out when it clearly wasn't.

So yes, the CDC data (and the data from similar agencies in other countries) show that vaccines decreased infections, and that they were not declining prior to the vaccine. Again, I would be curious to know what source you have that contradicts the CDC.

Last edited by Janine; 02-01-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:50 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z2akids

That article says that vaccines caused the decline in rates of VPDs. That is the opposite of what you indicated your research said. I didn't go so far as to look at the original data used for that article. However, needless to say, it is not a reviewed scientific paper. There are plenty of other sources for information on the decline of VPDs in the wake of vaccination. However, Janine was asking for sources of posts that claimed this isn't true.

I'm not the poster you quoted. However, I do not believe that there are any peer reviewed studies that definitively connect overall health to vaccines. I think the poster you quoted was trying to show another poster that just because her experience was that unvaxed were healthier, that doesn't mean it is true and that her experience has been different.

There are too many variables to overall health and wellness to do such a study, IMHO. The advent of modern vaccination and other medical advancements (antibiotics, surgeries, understanding of the human genome, etc.) as well as changes in the lifestyles of the majority of Americans (the decrease in multigenerational homes, etc.) have all contributed to changes in overall health of mankind.

Vaccines are not meant to make you healthier overall. They are simply meant to prevent you from contracting a specific disease. Contrary to some of the other posters (who claim to "have read it somewhere") there is abundant evidence that vaccinations have resulted in a tremendous decrease in VPDs and that decreases in vaccination rates results in an increase in those same diseases.

Peer reviewed and government looking out for us are two entirely different subjects. Research scientists are not government lackeys. Research scientists using the appropriate scientific method can have their results reproduced by other scientists. The research team that finds the actual cause for autism (which is likely a first step to preventing and curing) will very likely wind up very rich and their names will be in textbooks for generations to come. The University or pharm company that they are attached to will be looking at billions of dollars in grants and profits from treatments. I do not believe the idea that "big pharma" and the government are suppressing information that vaccines cause autism or other problems. There is simply too much money and fame to be made from proving that and then treating it.
I put that link bc I had no idea what graphs she was talking about and was asking if this was it. I read the article and found it interesting.

Much research is gov funded so they are not always exclusive.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:50 AM   #128
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Re: Give me good stories about vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra View Post
[Peer reviewed citations needed].
Do you have any peer reviewed based citations for both claims? I would love to see it:
I think the poster you are quoting was being tongue in cheek. She'd responded to someone who claimed that breastfed, unvaxed children are healthier because the ones she personally knows are. Happysmileylady posted the tongue-in-cheek answer that she had the opposite experience, so they canceled each other out. She only posted what you quoted when she was questioned about that.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:57 AM   #129
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I agree that there are way too many factors that contribute to health or lack of health to just give ff bf or vaccines credit.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:01 PM   #130
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Re: Give me good stories about vaccinations

https://m.facebook.com/note.php?note..._user=40008824

This was a pretty good read posted yesterday on FB Has LINKS {gasp} to back it up
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