View Poll Results: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people don't?
Yes, primarily because of herd immunity. 118 27.83%
Yes, but not primarily because of herd immunity. 24 5.66%
No, but I wish they would. 40 9.43%
No, vaccines are a personal choice. 134 31.60%
I do not vaccinate my children. 85 20.05%
I like polls and want to see the results without answering. 23 5.42%
Voters: 424. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-03-2012, 11:09 AM   #391
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

I am not the PP who wrote about an epidemic being the government's job, but I know what I got from that.

In a historical epidemic like the black plague, if you were stricken ill, too bad. You were shut in your house and you died. There was no public health, no one took care of the people other than religious organizations if they could.

In the US today, there is a law that anyone can go into an ER and be treated regardless of ability to pay. This means that in the event of an epidemic, literally every person in the US who is ill can seek treatment. There simply is not enough of a medicine supply to treat a major epidemic.

Vaccinations attempt to prevent a major epidemic

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Old 07-03-2012, 04:18 PM   #392
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainandRedemption View Post
I was responding specifically to this statement;

"A epidemic is the governments problem, we feel and live it, but they are in charge of it".

It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't see an epidemic as the goverments problem, and I don't think they are in charge of it.

I agree with your post above and I am one who would get on the boat and see it as God's deliverance. However if there is a hurricane on it's way I do not believe FEMA should be able to come in, force people to leave their homes, confiscate property, etc. If people want to stay in their homes and risk their lives it should be their choice.

Basically I believe the US government should do what it was meant by the founders to do, which is protect and ensure our liberties. It was not put into place to make sure we all live comfortably, healthily and happily. Those things are great but those things should be in our hands. When the govt interferes with things people's rights get infringed upon. And I would rather have my life and health in my hands and the hands of God than the govt, and by that I mean I am anti forced vaccinations, pro philosophical exemption. We're not lab rats and we should have a choice and it shouldn't be made difficult to go against the grain. There are plenty of things that can still go wrong with vaccines and I think we should be ready to accept and deal with that should it happen, instead of commiting ourselves to the "assuredness" that they are effective, worth the risks, etc and that there's no potential for negative consequences.

eta~ IMO vaccinations are a lot like GMO foods, in that they have not been used for a huge amount of time and the effects they will have on the human body are hard to know for sure, hard to follow the progression of, and might go largely unnoticed until there is severe and maybe irreversable damage. Also like GMO foods the world community is quick to accept them, not fully knowing the risks involved in commiting future generations to the effects.
I'm not sure what vaccinations you are talking about? Vaccinations have been around for centuries(smallpox/cowpox being first). Yes there are new ones that many people volunteer to be guinea pigs for(there's a HIV vaccination in testing right now) There are also vaccinations that have wiped disease off our earth to the point of not needing them anymore.

GMO foods were introduced to the public in the 90's. In a way GMO and vaccinations are alike. Altering a plants DNA to make it hearty, more nutritious or resilient to disease. Humans, not altering our DNA but conditioning our natural defense in small doses through vaccination.

I'm not one to buy into the GMO hype though. I do see the danger in there being no reason to use more pesticides/herbicides on these plants because they are resistant to pesticides/herbicides, but the consumer is not. But that's a different story.

For a second imagine a family near you developed polio. Sister first. She had what they thought was the flu for 6 days. She got over it but 2 days later got it again worse. Mom got it next. She was sick for X amount of days. Dad got it, he was in and out of work for a week before he just stayed home. They all had to seek medical attention and lets say 2 were hospitalized. Do they have insurance? Will their insurance cover everything? Who is making money to cover their living expenses and medical bills? Dad infects 3 of his co-workers who infect their family, one wife being a school teacher. She infects 12 kids who infect X amount of people.
All these people need medical attention not to mention the CDC would probably come in and take measures to keep the rest of the community under control. What about after care? Some of these people would be disabled. This is a problem for the government, no?
Will kids be in school? If not who will pay the teachers salaries? It's really a trickle down effect. If the government doesn't want to have to support a certain amount of it's people through a epidemic they will do everything they can do to prevent it (without crossing ethical boundaries of course).
If there were a epidemic like above, you'd better bet they would come in and inoculate everyone just to keep any progression of the disease under control. At that point I think it would be a matter of keeping everyone safe and this would be the ethical decision. It wold be an emergency.

I've been thinking about "let nature/ natural law take over."
This is a unrealistic POV. Unless it is only regarding vaccinations to you. Even then it is a little cold. Communicable diseases hit the elderly, the young and pregnant women first. I'm really big on evolutionary biology and see that suffering is a natural and necessary process, one that is necessary for the stronger to go on and breed stronger organisms. But, modern medicine has added to our own evolutionary history. I think if certain ethical standards weren't set, we may be more advanced in controlling disease now.

Realize if vaccinations weren't a standard procedure in childhood since long ago, many people you know may not be alive/born now. You may not have ever been. I'm all for freedom of choice but there has to be a certain understanding in the fact that we are animals living in close proximity, interacting with one another on a daily basis and there are other biological forms living around us, in us and they aren't always good.
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Old 07-03-2012, 08:43 PM   #393
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

I haven't had time to read this whole thread, but will when I can.
We vax for what we CAN vax for - a family history of deafness caused by a reaction to one vaccine plus some allergies and a kid with a seizure disorder severely limit that, though. On top of not being able to be fully vaxed, two of our kids have significant immune deficiencies, so ANY illness can be a major thing in our house. A minor cold for the other two kids throws my 7 into a sinus infection and pneumonia easily and the 1 year old into sinus infection, horrendous asthma symptoms, and bacteremia within a few days.
We're part of a couple local homeschool groups where not vaxing is the norm and I'm ok with it in principal, but wish that people (vaxers and non-vaxers alike) would keep their kids HOME when they're ill rather than exposing everyone else. We've had significant outbreaks of measles, mumps, and pertussis within our larger hs group and another large group with a lot of overlapping members, and it's made me leery of taking the boys to anything with the group. I HATE that I have to be afraid to let my 7 yo (who is also on the autism spectrum and has trouble making friends) play with his few good friends because they are unvaxed and very active participants within the group where these things are being passed around.
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:40 PM   #394
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

Quote:
Originally Posted by llamabeans View Post
I'm not sure what vaccinations you are talking about? Vaccinations have been around for centuries(smallpox/cowpox being first). Yes there are new ones that many people volunteer to be guinea pigs for(there's a HIV vaccination in testing right now) There are also vaccinations that have wiped disease off our earth to the point of not needing them anymore.

GMO foods were introduced to the public in the 90's. In a way GMO and vaccinations are alike. Altering a plants DNA to make it hearty, more nutritious or resilient to disease. Humans, not altering our DNA but conditioning our natural defense in small doses through vaccination.

I'm not one to buy into the GMO hype though. I do see the danger in there being no reason to use more pesticides/herbicides on these plants because they are resistant to pesticides/herbicides, but the consumer is not. But that's a different story.

For a second imagine a family near you developed polio. Sister first. She had what they thought was the flu for 6 days. She got over it but 2 days later got it again worse. Mom got it next. She was sick for X amount of days. Dad got it, he was in and out of work for a week before he just stayed home. They all had to seek medical attention and lets say 2 were hospitalized. Do they have insurance? Will their insurance cover everything? Who is making money to cover their living expenses and medical bills? Dad infects 3 of his co-workers who infect their family, one wife being a school teacher. She infects 12 kids who infect X amount of people.
All these people need medical attention not to mention the CDC would probably come in and take measures to keep the rest of the community under control. What about after care? Some of these people would be disabled. This is a problem for the government, no?
Will kids be in school? If not who will pay the teachers salaries? It's really a trickle down effect. If the government doesn't want to have to support a certain amount of it's people through a epidemic they will do everything they can do to prevent it (without crossing ethical boundaries of course).
If there were a epidemic like above, you'd better bet they would come in and inoculate everyone just to keep any progression of the disease under control. At that point I think it would be a matter of keeping everyone safe and this would be the ethical decision. It wold be an emergency.

I've been thinking about "let nature/ natural law take over."
This is a unrealistic POV. Unless it is only regarding vaccinations to you. Even then it is a little cold. Communicable diseases hit the elderly, the young and pregnant women first. I'm really big on evolutionary biology and see that suffering is a natural and necessary process, one that is necessary for the stronger to go on and breed stronger organisms. But, modern medicine has added to our own evolutionary history. I think if certain ethical standards weren't set, we may be more advanced in controlling disease now.

Realize if vaccinations weren't a standard procedure in childhood since long ago, many people you know may not be alive/born now. You may not have ever been. I'm all for freedom of choice but there has to be a certain understanding in the fact that we are animals living in close proximity, interacting with one another on a daily basis and there are other biological forms living around us, in us and they aren't always good.
I believe gmo foods have been around about as long as vaccines, I'll try to find a link. The comparison was not the specific effect to the body, but the fact that we are not well equiped to observe how either of these things effect our bodies over extended periods of time, specifically over generations, yet the commitement we have to them both will have a tremendous impact. There are theories on what each one will do over time but since our bodies all react differently to different things the impact on human bodies is exponentially unknown. We do not have enough information about how "raw", for lack of better term, bodies function to recognize if and when the vaccines/gmos begin to affect us to the point that we become something that is fundamentally different from what we once where. Like caffiene will alter your mood, I worry that manipulating the intricate details of our immune systems and such will give us some surprising and unexpected results. The body is too complex for me to believe that we can inject such a mixture into our bodies and not be profoundly altered as a result


Yes I will admit vaccines and scientific advancement have accomplished great things, but that doesn't warrant a commitement on such a grand scale IMO. There are other avenues that can be explored to advance the health and wellbeing of society, but the govt funds pharmaceuticals and the advancement of that only thus making the choice for us, and that IMO is a problem.

I don't believe "let nature/ natural law take over." I believe "let the govt get out of bed with the pharm companies, give us our tax $$ back and let us try to find our own solutions". In an epidemic situation most people will opt to take a vaccine, over risking getting polio, unless a better option is available. Some may not and it should be their right. But if the people's hands were loosed a little, we may be able to come up with a more natural solution that doesn't potentially change human beings, on a fundamental level, in a potentially irreversible way.

My pov may not be humanitarian on all levels, but I don't believe yours is either. There is suffering in both situations, and such is life, unfortunately.
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:15 AM   #395
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

It does bother me a little in regards to herd immunity. At the same time though, my kids ARE vaccinated so if others are not I feel they're protected.
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:12 PM   #396
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

I think it's terribly selfish NOT to vaccinate unless there is a medical reason (allergy, compromised immune system, etc) for the decision.

I have no problems with alternative schedules, or with opting not to get CP or Flu vaccine but the major "plague" viruses like Pertussis or Diptheria or Polio??? I think if you lived when those were common you'd be the first in line for the shot.
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:42 PM   #397
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

Just in regards to GMO's and Vaccinations. It is believed likely that some form of inoculation was developed in India or China before the 16th century. I don't think GMO's go back that far.
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:19 PM   #398
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We didn't understand DNA before the 50's, so there's no way GMO foods could go back before then. If anything is was a farmer trying to get a different color flower or bigger tomatoes by observing nature and trying to replicate this.
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Old 07-05-2012, 02:39 PM   #399
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Re: If you vaccinate your kids, does it bother you when other people dont?

I guess I should have said the culminative change to our food has been going on about as long as vaccines but maybe that's not acurate. Regardless I think the point is valid an dI hope you don't just dismiss my viewpoint as quakery.

World wars I and II, poisons were developed to kill people, both were altered into pesicides sprayed on our food.
Yu can watch this and see what I mean, the first 10 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV3Jf...ature=youtu.be
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Old 07-05-2012, 02:54 PM   #400
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