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Old 06-26-2012, 07:19 PM   #11
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I really enjoyed this article and I go think our kids aren't given enough responsibility early enough. The ” everyone gets a gold sticker for trying” had some side effects. When I was working in management, I couldn't believe how many people were coming out of college with a great sense of entitlement! So many acted as if just coming to work, not even always on time, was reason enough for a bonus. Pah!

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I agree with that completely. Have you seen the way service people are routinely treated? I sometimes feel I'm the only one who uses please and thank you, patiently waits thier turn, and I swear if one more person pushes past me or walks right in front of me without saying excuse me, I may snap. I think lots of parents also forget children learn just as much, if not more, from what we DO, not what we SAY. It does no good to tell them share or wait your turn if you're standing in line complaining the whole time and then are rude to the person who helps you. I was literally just discussing with DH the sickening level of entitlement I see in people today...

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Old 06-26-2012, 07:39 PM   #12
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Re: Really Interesting Article

I have to say reading this article actually affected how I parented today. I am trying to potty train my 3.5 yr old. It's not going well and today was a day of many accidents. Another one happened right after I read it. I have had her help clean up and did again but I always changed her underwear for her. Today I stopped and made her do it herself. I was thinking of the boy the article talked about with the socks and shoes. And you know, I wasn't entirely sure she could figure it out...but she did. She had two more accidents today and each time she took off her wet underwear, put it in the dirty laundry, and got her own clean underwear out of the drawer and put it on herself.

I have one child just two years from high school graduation. I have tried to raise her to be a capable young adult and I think that for the most part I have done ok. I need to remember to keep the same spirit in mind when raising her three younger siblings. I underestimate them way too much.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:07 PM   #13
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Re: Really Interesting Article

yay for both of you! Hope that things start to click for her soon and the accidents minimize!
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Old 06-27-2012, 04:58 AM   #14
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Re: Really Interesting Article

I think the article may be a good start but lacking in information. Or should I just say a little simplified. There is so much that goes into raising a child and everyone does it a little different. Even here in America where generalizations rule. This seems like a needle in a haystack. I'm sure the author and researchers have more information gathered and not presented in this article.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:59 AM   #15
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Re: Really Interesting Article

I really liked this article too. Very interesting. It's true that there's much more at stake in the hunter/gatherer societies. Kids help because it's a matter of survival. And even in the U.S. 100 years ago chores were a lot more "real." Kids helped cut wood so they would have food for the fire and to cook their food. Kids milked the cows so they had something to drink. Children's work was a lot more meaningful.

Today, kids clean their rooms... to make mom happy? They mow the lawn because... it looks nice? I think it's a lot harder to make work around the house meaningful for kids so they can see the impact of what NOT doing the work has on their family.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:07 AM   #16
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Re: Really Interesting Article

Eh, I'm an anthropology student and far too much of it is "inferred" for my liking. There's absolutely no hard data behind the American kids stories, and it appears to be purely anecdotal.

The problem with this other culture, or our culture in the past, is that kids didn't get to be kids. They led purely miserable lives. I'd much rather my six year old girl go to ballet class and play dolls with her friends after school than be cooking over fires and cleaning all day.

Not to mention, the anecdotal stories were about kids from LA. I highly doubt that they compare to the average middle class family in the midwest.

Psychology is a pretty great thing. Kids are not mini-adults. They are kids. It is absolutely possible (and preferable!) to teach kids responsibility. There's no reason kids can't dress themselves and clean their rooms daily from a young age. There's no reason why kids can't have age-appropriate chores. However, the great thing about living in a first world, wealthy country is that we can afford to do both; teach them responsibility AND let them have a great, fun childhood. As for extended adolescence, it's a controversial topic. It's a natural consequence of our much-longer lifespans and evolving society that makes college degrees a must for a sizable chunk of society. To say that "kids were so responsible in the past" is over-simplifying it, because life completely sucked in the past and I highly doubt any of us want to go back to that.

The only persuasive statistic the article offered, IMO, was that 2/3rds of parents find their kids spoiled. The problem? There is absolutely no universal definition for "spoiled". My parents would have said yes to that, because they provided myself and my siblings with a lot of extras growing up. I got a car when I was 15, I was allowed to do any extra-curricular activity I wanted, we could go to the mall and get pretty much anything we wanted. However, I also worked 30 hours a week starting my sophomore year of high school, was extremely dedicated to my activities, graduated with high honors, got a full scholarship to an excellent university for my undergraduate and graduate degrees, did chores without complaint and never took advantage of the generosity of my parents, appreciative of everything they did.

Spoiled kids aren't an American thing. They're a first-world thing. I have absolutely no doubt that they exist, all one has to do is go to a mall or watch Toddlers and Tiaras. However, ANY book like this exists solely to sell copies and the truth, that most American kids are probably pretty decent kids who will go on to do well, doesn't sell.
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Old 06-27-2012, 04:48 PM   #17
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Re: Really Interesting Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLovely View Post
Eh, I'm an anthropology student and far too much of it is "inferred" for my liking. There's absolutely no hard data behind the American kids stories, and it appears to be purely anecdotal.

The problem with this other culture, or our culture in the past, is that kids didn't get to be kids. They led purely miserable lives. I'd much rather my six year old girl go to ballet class and play dolls with her friends after school than be cooking over fires and cleaning all day.

Not to mention, the anecdotal stories were about kids from LA. I highly doubt that they compare to the average middle class family in the midwest.

Psychology is a pretty great thing. Kids are not mini-adults. They are kids. It is absolutely possible (and preferable!) to teach kids responsibility. There's no reason kids can't dress themselves and clean their rooms daily from a young age. There's no reason why kids can't have age-appropriate chores. However, the great thing about living in a first world, wealthy country is that we can afford to do both; teach them responsibility AND let them have a great, fun childhood. As for extended adolescence, it's a controversial topic. It's a natural consequence of our much-longer lifespans and evolving society that makes college degrees a must for a sizable chunk of society. To say that "kids were so responsible in the past" is over-simplifying it, because life completely sucked in the past and I highly doubt any of us want to go back to that.

The only persuasive statistic the article offered, IMO, was that 2/3rds of parents find their kids spoiled. The problem? There is absolutely no universal definition for "spoiled". My parents would have said yes to that, because they provided myself and my siblings with a lot of extras growing up. I got a car when I was 15, I was allowed to do any extra-curricular activity I wanted, we could go to the mall and get pretty much anything we wanted. However, I also worked 30 hours a week starting my sophomore year of high school, was extremely dedicated to my activities, graduated with high honors, got a full scholarship to an excellent university for my undergraduate and graduate degrees, did chores without complaint and never took advantage of the generosity of my parents, appreciative of everything they did.

Spoiled kids aren't an American thing. They're a first-world thing. I have absolutely no doubt that they exist, all one has to do is go to a mall or watch Toddlers and Tiaras. However, ANY book like this exists solely to sell copies and the truth, that most American kids are probably pretty decent kids who will go on to do well, doesn't sell.
Honestly, while I agree with the last bit that it's not an American thin, it's a first world thing...I am not sure I agree with the rest. There may not be a lot of specific stats in this particular article, but I think there are stats out there that support the idea that more and more young adults are still acting like children. I mean, we just changed health insurance laws in this country to ensure that adult children could be covered under their parents insurance until the age of 26. And this is from a year ago showing that lots and lots of parents are helping their adult children, with housing and more.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagou...dult-children/ When figuring financial aid, the government EXPECTS parents to contribute to their ADULT CHILDREN'S bills. And virtually everyone in the country accepts that as the way it has to be. In some states, child support laws require that child support from the non custodial parent extend past age 18.

I also think that the ideas that "life completely sucked" or that kids led miserable lives or that they didn't ever get to be kids is off base. Certainly kids DID have more responsibilities, and certainly life a hundred years ago or older was not nearly as convenient as it is today. But, kids still had dolls, kids still had toys, they still played games and there was still some leisure time for everyone in the family. Sure, a girl might have had to spend a couple hours sewing some clothes or whatever, but then she also sewed up a couple of dressed for her doll and played dolls with her sisters for a couple hours too. I am pretty sure archaeologists have uncovered childrens dolls digging up ancient Egypt, I don't think playing with dolls is something new for kids. Sure, a kid might have had to cook dinner over a fire behind the wagon on their way across county, but they also then got to sit around and read books till the light died, or play tag or chase the dog or whatever.
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:30 PM   #18
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Re: Really Interesting Article

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Originally Posted by happysmileylady View Post
Honestly, while I agree with the last bit that it's not an American thin, it's a first world thing...I am not sure I agree with the rest. There may not be a lot of specific stats in this particular article, but I think there are stats out there that support the idea that more and more young adults are still acting like children. I mean, we just changed health insurance laws in this country to ensure that adult children could be covered under their parents insurance until the age of 26. And this is from a year ago showing that lots and lots of parents are helping their adult children, with housing and more.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagou...dult-children/ When figuring financial aid, the government EXPECTS parents to contribute to their ADULT CHILDREN'S bills. And virtually everyone in the country accepts that as the way it has to be. In some states, child support laws require that child support from the non custodial parent extend past age 18.

I also think that the ideas that "life completely sucked" or that kids led miserable lives or that they didn't ever get to be kids is off base. Certainly kids DID have more responsibilities, and certainly life a hundred years ago or older was not nearly as convenient as it is today. But, kids still had dolls, kids still had toys, they still played games and there was still some leisure time for everyone in the family. Sure, a girl might have had to spend a couple hours sewing some clothes or whatever, but then she also sewed up a couple of dressed for her doll and played dolls with her sisters for a couple hours too. I am pretty sure archaeologists have uncovered childrens dolls digging up ancient Egypt, I don't think playing with dolls is something new for kids. Sure, a kid might have had to cook dinner over a fire behind the wagon on their way across county, but they also then got to sit around and read books till the light died, or play tag or chase the dog or whatever.
I agree.

It was really hard for me in college because even though I was 100% on my own, all the financial aid took my parent's income into the equation. Not fair. They weren't paying for it! Or my books! or my rent! etc. etc. (in full honesty, my mom continued to pay my car insurance )

I think it's a LOT more complicated than any article that most people would take the time to read can really go into. But the jist of it seems accurate.

We have low expectations for our children and they rise to those. If you raise the expectations, it's a fair bet that they'll meet those to a point as well.
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:05 PM   #19
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Re: Really Interesting Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by happysmileylady View Post
Honestly, while I agree with the last bit that it's not an American thin, it's a first world thing...I am not sure I agree with the rest. There may not be a lot of specific stats in this particular article, but I think there are stats out there that support the idea that more and more young adults are still acting like children. I mean, we just changed health insurance laws in this country to ensure that adult children could be covered under their parents insurance until the age of 26. And this is from a year ago showing that lots and lots of parents are helping their adult children, with housing and more.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagou...dult-children/ When figuring financial aid, the government EXPECTS parents to contribute to their ADULT CHILDREN'S bills. And virtually everyone in the country accepts that as the way it has to be. In some states, child support laws require that child support from the non custodial parent extend past age 18.

I also think that the ideas that "life completely sucked" or that kids led miserable lives or that they didn't ever get to be kids is off base. Certainly kids DID have more responsibilities, and certainly life a hundred years ago or older was not nearly as convenient as it is today. But, kids still had dolls, kids still had toys, they still played games and there was still some leisure time for everyone in the family. Sure, a girl might have had to spend a couple hours sewing some clothes or whatever, but then she also sewed up a couple of dressed for her doll and played dolls with her sisters for a couple hours too. I am pretty sure archaeologists have uncovered childrens dolls digging up ancient Egypt, I don't think playing with dolls is something new for kids. Sure, a kid might have had to cook dinner over a fire behind the wagon on their way across county, but they also then got to sit around and read books till the light died, or play tag or chase the dog or whatever.
I've talked to plenty of people who were children in the first half of the century. Did they have childhoods? Yes, but it was short. My grandma's days were spent in school, then coming home and spending hours doing laundry by hand, cooking from scratch and scrubbing the house. Kids had to step up and grow up fast because life was just so much harder. And yeah, my grandmothers, great-aunts and great-grandmothers were the very first to say that their childhoods were short and difficult.

Society changes. It evolves. The reason healthcare laws now cover you under your parent's policy is because huge numbers of college students and recent graduates are uninsured, because they simply cannot afford it. That's how it works for most people; undergraduate degree, menial job for a year, graduate school, then working your way slowly up the food chain with long hours and bad pay. Just because some people manage doesn't mean everyone can. All it takes is one accident as an uninsured 24 year old graduate student to set you back 10+ years financially.

Children of the past weren't just sewing clothes a few hours a day. They were treated as mini-adults, doing anything and everything as soon as they were able. Thankfully, we don't live in such a culture. There's no reason why a kid should throw a tantrum about taking a bath or doing the dishes. But a PP hit the nail on the head by saying that there is no meaningful work to be done in middle class suburbia. We don't have cows to milk, shelters to build, clothes to sew, animals to skin, clothes to wash by hand, etc.

Every generation LOVES lamenting about how horrible and spoiled the next generation is, how they're going to ruin the world, based on a few extreme examples (like this article). Yet we've managed to keep going for 200,000 years with no end in sight. For every whiny, bratty kid I run into, I see ten well-adjusted, smart, hardworking kids.
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:14 PM   #20
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Re: Really Interesting Article

Honestly I didn't get the article at all. Comparing American kids to an Amazon tribe, medieval times?

I do find it interesting some of the things that are happening here now with parenting. There was a discussion about this on the radio the other day, and they were talking about all the crazy things parents are doing now. Someone was saying that parents have been showing up with their kids on job interviews! Can you even believe that? I just can't imagine being okay with that. What? Why? The thought process that leads to that conclusion is beyond me.
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