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Old 09-17-2012, 09:02 AM   #141
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Re: babywise

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Originally Posted by GEMQEMCABOOSE View Post
I cannot speak to impossibility because I'm old enough to have learned there is rarely such a thing, but I would think it very difficult to nurse to 2 or 3 years as a scheduling nurser. Though I don't know why you'd still have such a schedule in place much over a year. The BW framework is for infants and we transition to a toddler way of doing things after a year.

I don't know what has led you to believe the Ezzos don't communicate with their children?? Its simply not true. Nor is it true with the Pearls. Both have their families involved in their ministries, publications and conferences.

This is where I read it.

November 2002 -- Jennifer and Paul Luedke (one of the Ezzos' daughters and her husband) cut off contact with her parents after much prayer, consideration and counsel, based on their personal observation of the same types of issues raised by the LHEF elders. Their hope is that the relationships will be restored following the Ezzos' repentence.
Source: emails on file from Paul Luedke, dated January 25, 2006 and July 31, 2008

August 2008--In the wake of a rumor to the contrary, I verified that Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo remain estranged from their daughters.
Source: Email from Paul Luedke on file.

June 2011--Again verified the ongoing estrangement of the Ezzos and their children.
Source: Email from Paul Luedke, dated 6/24/2011.

July 2000 Gary's other son in law, Paul Luedke, resigned his position with GFI.
Source: Christian Research Journal News Watch

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Old 09-17-2012, 09:07 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Joyful Tie Dyes

This is where I read it.

November 2002 -- Jennifer and Paul Luedke (one of the Ezzos' daughters and her husband) cut off contact with her parents after much prayer, consideration and counsel, based on their personal observation of the same types of issues raised by the LHEF elders. Their hope is that the relationships will be restored following the Ezzos' repentence.
Source: emails on file from Paul Luedke, dated January 25, 2006 and July 31, 2008

August 2008--In the wake of a rumor to the contrary, I verified that Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo remain estranged from their daughters.
Source: Email from Paul Luedke on file.

June 2011--Again verified the ongoing estrangement of the Ezzos and their children.
Source: Email from Paul Luedke, dated 6/24/2011.

July 2000 — Gary's other son in law, Paul Luedke, resigned his position with GFI.
Source: Christian Research Journal News Watch
*eeeeeeekkkkk*
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:27 AM   #143
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Re: babywise

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Originally Posted by KaleidoscopeEyes View Post
me neither, i hide those kinds of books when im at the library or bookstore
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I think this link perfectly sums up why I think BW is horrid and why I hide it in the horror section of the bookstore and library whenever I run across a stray copy. Instincts tell this mama to pick up her baby. So why is she listening to a stranger? To each their own, I guess.
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Well I guess I'll never know if someone is hiding Dr Sears anywhere in the library but if they are I don't care (it doesn't offend me). Yeah there's freedom of choice. I choose to hide the thing.

Eh, while I am not a big fan of the book, I am less a fan of censorship and honestly, hiding the book comes across as childish.

When I read the book, I did so for a research project and would have been irritated if it had been hidden because some anti-BW person didn't want anyone to read it. You're not going to stop someone from reading the book. You're just going to cause more work for the innocent librarian.

Don't like the book, then show your distain by emmulating a different way of doing things and telling those you know about your experience with other parenting tricks.


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Interesting article about sleep training that was published recently. If you read the whole article they found some interesting things about sleep and maternal depression.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...-3467.abstract

I haven't sleep trained my kids, and haven't had any major issues with sleep, however, I am also not one of those super stressed out trying to be perfect AP mom types. In general, heck, we all have our days. I worry that there is so much focus on AP being the only right way, and everything else being harmful to babies, that we are actually hurting mothers. I was really torn with my son, because cosleeping was touted as ALWAYS being the right way, and that babies never want to sleep alone. But that's simply not true. And once I figured out with my ds that he sleeps better alone, we were both much happier.

One (honest) question I have about Babywise, how do you schedule feeds and breastfeed?
I agree. I probably have more leanings towards "AP" than other parenting "styles" but I don't follow any particular style. I am not a stressed out parent looking for an expert to tell me how to make sure that my kids are well rested. We did what felt right with out kids. That meant co-sleeping with the ones who wanted to, cribs for those who preferred it, nursing on demand and doing our best to teach the kids to be flexible rather than scheduled, because our lives are not scheduled the same from day to day.

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This is very common in BW babies, mine included. Though 6pm is very early. Its a choice, a lifestyle choice. If you want to come and go as you please and ask your LOs to catch naps in the BECO or car throughout the day, then feel free. This same child will likely fight you on nap or bedtime and may have more inconsistent sleep habits at home because they are accustomed to a little here, a little there, wherever, whenever. BW is all together different, and that's not for everyone. Indeed, our littles will meltdown if naptime is missed or ultra - delayed. They naturally are a little more flexible after a year, but yes, we are bound far more to our schedule as our babies are less forgiving of changes in routine and schedule. Its a tradeoff. For me it was always worth it to have to rush through errands etc... because I highly value predictable sleep for me and them. I love that my babies and toddlers and preschoolers ask for naps and smile and blow kisses and I lay them down and that's that. To this day my 4.5 DS2 cannot miss his afternoon nap or he's a total pill.
That would be a lifestyle choice I would not make. Being tied to a nap for a child who is almost kindergarten would drive me crazy. I agree that my children likely were not as good of sleepers as yours. But, that isn't my biggest concern which would be part of the reason I wouldn't choose a book that advocated strict scheduling. My kids have been portable from their earliest days. They learn to sleep in the pack-n-play, our bed with us, on a bed at a friend's house, in the car, and often on mom or dad. We definitely try to make sure that they get adequate sleep, but we don't have issues with meltdowns if they aren't in their bed by 6 or 8 or whatever and if they don't get a nap at a specific time. We are busy people. I might have been able to follow a strict schedule with my first, but not past that.


I agree with some others that there is a problem with the breastfeeding relationship if it requires pumping to maintain. That goes for people who schedule feedings and also for moms who work out fo the house and have to pump in order to maintain supply being away from baby for hours on end. Personally, I would not have chosen to add the extra work and time of pumping when I was at home and had baby available to maintain my supply. But, I don't see this as a problem any more than a mom who works out of the house pumping to maintain supply.

Ultimately, I am not a big fan of parenting books that claim to be able to solve all of baby's problems if you only follow steps XYZ for long enough.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:31 AM   #144
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Re: babywise

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Originally Posted by GEMQEMCABOOSE View Post
Come to find out, these babies were happy to eat every 4 hours and STTN but the moms weren't pumping or supplementing or anything and nearly lost their supply without realizing it.
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I guess to some its a lot of work, but its just normal to me. For the most part, I just make sure to keep a late night nursing/pumping session in there and pump for the first 12 weeks 2x/day and that's it.
Not only a lot of work, but a strange way to breastfeed - to plan for the need of supplementing or pumping, instead of just letting baby nurse and suckle and establish a milk supply tailored to his needs?

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Originally Posted by March View Post
-it's about not laying down the prolactin levels the first three months that feeding on cue and allowing flutter-sucking/sleeping on the breast facilitate, naturally, by our design as human beings.


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There was only one specific thing that I thought was dead wrong: the authors claimed that moms of scheduled babies have a better milk supply than mothers that feed on demand.
Yes, I've heard that argument - they say that the best way to establish a good milk supply is to fully fill and then drain the breast at these timed intervals. Not at all what I've read/experienced.
The filling/emptying of the breast isn't what stimulates milk production. The suckling of the baby is what is needed for stimulation.
Only letting baby nurse 4-5 times a day (assuming a 3hr schedule, sleeping 12hrs at night), instead of letting baby nurse when they want (averaging 8-12 times a day) is definitely going to affect supply.

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Not so much shot whether babywise is right or wrong, but it can't be Biblically correct. Mary didn't own a Medela.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:32 AM   #145
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Re: babywise

Hmmm. I don't get it . I think I'd rather just get up and breastfeed the actual baby then get up and pump. Seems like I'd just be adding an unnecessary step, no?

I also wonder what the actual success rate is. Not just the experience of one sample group.

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Originally Posted by Joyful Tie Dyes View Post
This is where I read it.

November 2002 -- Jennifer and Paul Luedke (one of the Ezzos' daughters and her husband) cut off contact with her parents after much prayer, consideration and counsel, based on their personal observation of the same types of issues raised by the LHEF elders. Their hope is that the relationships will be restored following the Ezzos' repentence.
Source: emails on file from Paul Luedke, dated January 25, 2006 and July 31, 2008

August 2008--In the wake of a rumor to the contrary, I verified that Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo remain estranged from their daughters.
Source: Email from Paul Luedke on file.

June 2011--Again verified the ongoing estrangement of the Ezzos and their children.
Source: Email from Paul Luedke, dated 6/24/2011.

July 2000 Gary's other son in law, Paul Luedke, resigned his position with GFI.
Source: Christian Research Journal News Watch
There's a woman locally who teaches a similar approach who also has no contact with her own children. Doesn't seem like people I'd like to take parenting advice from.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:47 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEMQEMCABOOSE

This is very common in BW babies, mine included. Though 6pm is very early. Its a choice, a lifestyle choice. If you want to come and go as you please and ask your LOs to catch naps in the BECO or car throughout the day, then feel free. This same child will likely fight you on nap or bedtime and may have more inconsistent sleep habits at home because they are accustomed to a little here, a little there, wherever, whenever. BW is all together different, and that's not for everyone. Indeed, our littles will meltdown if naptime is missed or ultra - delayed. They naturally are a little more flexible after a year, but yes, we are bound far more to our schedule as our babies are less forgiving of changes in routine and schedule. Its a tradeoff. For me it was always worth it to have to rush through errands etc... because I highly value predictable sleep for me and them. I love that my babies and toddlers and preschoolers ask for naps and smile and blow kisses and I lay them down and that's that. To this day my 4.5 DS2 cannot miss his afternoon nap or he's a total pill.
Yep. I am a nap nazi in my circle of friends. I don't change nap time EVER. I might let him sleep in the car every other month or so, if we are going somewhere but its very rare. He loves his naps.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:03 AM   #147
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Re: babywise

Happily a nap nazi here too! Now my youngest is almost 3. His nap is 3 hours. It can begin anytime between 1230 and 200. But we are home asleep for 3 hours every afternoon and we all like it that way. It works here and in plenty of other homes.

With how prejudicial some BFing moms are even towards other successfully BFing moms who's BFing relationship looks different, its no wonder some FF moms feel like pariahs. . Among BFing moms, I thought the priority was that BM be the primary source of nutrition until 1 year, with a gentle transition to solid foods with variety. We do that and do that well. So, what does it matter if we pump in the first few months? What does it matter if we choose to have to be mindful of our supply while other moms can take it for granted? We accept it as part and parcel of our parenting approach with our infants. Just as you take night nursing or bedsharing for months and years as part of yours. Doesn't make it a bad thing or a problem at all, just part of how you do things. KWIM? Our babies are breastfed - that's a win in my book. Again, I understand how our way sounds unappealing or weird to you... as yours does to me. See, all mommies doing what works for us and our babies, all just trying to be the best mommies we can be.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:05 AM   #148
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Re: babywise

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Many BW babies are thumb suckers. They seem to pick that up frequently around 2-3 months of age. We often find babies have less need to suck around 2-3 months as they take up the thumb and get more aware of and involved in discovering their environments. I'm sure there's a child development expert out there who has written about it for "proof". Its just what we have seen in working with and sharing about oodles of babies. Many of our friends are quiverful so there is an endless supply of babies to study around here.


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Honestly, I have never seen that with a BW baby. Something is amiss here. Glad you found something that worked for you and your son. Our babies are generally sleeping 3-4 hrs per night by 1 week (mine have since birth), and most reach a 5-7 stretch consistently at night by 3-4 weeks as you experienced. Most are STTN 8 hours by 11 weeks.
I must admit 8 hours by 12 weeks does sound lovely! I'm not much of a schedule oriented person though so it would just not work for our family.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:08 AM   #149
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Re: babywise

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Hmmm. I don't get it . I think I'd rather just get up and breastfeed the actual baby then get up and pump. Seems like I'd just be adding an unnecessary step, no?

I also wonder what the actual success rate is. Not just the experience of one sample group.



There's a woman locally who teaches a similar approach who also has no contact with her own children. Doesn't seem like people I'd like to take parenting advice from.
We do get up and feed the baby. Ours are often perfectly content to go 12 hours without nursing by 6 months. We happily continue dreamfeeding for another 4-6 months to maintain supply. We are not pumping unless we choose to surrender the dreamfeed (I don't) or our babies simply will not nurse at that time any longer. (they commonly stop at 8-10 months, often depending upon solids consumption).

Its a good thing that only BW parents end up estranged from one or more of their children. That no other parent, and certainly not an AP parent ever has, is good to know. Seriously people?

FWIW, Jennifer and Paul have been intermittently distant and detached from her parents, the Ezzos. Paul moreso than Jennifer. Amy, the other daughter, is an integral part of their ministry and teaching.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:13 AM   #150
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Re: babywise

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I agree that I think this thread has been really educational as opposed to an all out battle of ideals and attacks. There may have been a hint of that , but nothing crazy. I think if a mom were considering looking into BW this thread would be helpful as it points out some of the realities of scheduling and the mom could then decide if that fits were her life and goals.

The FTT issues are still the most concerning to me about BW. If it weren't for that, I'd be much more "meh" about it. But when you've got a hungry baby trained to STTN instead of eat when their little body absolutely needs food (thus the FTT diagnosis) that's really disconcerting. I love my sleep as much if not more than the next person, I just can't place my need for sleep above my baby's need for food.
This is my main concern as well. I don't know why exactly, but this seems to be the one parenting theory I see for infants (things like AP, Baby Whisperer, Ferber, etc), that has the MOST complaints, horror stories, FTT issues, ect. Maybe it's just where I'm looking?? But I find that concerning. It seems like it's really easy to 'mess up' so to speak, which doesn't make it good for mass consumption, generally. Also, everything I've read about Ezzo (which isn't much, admittedly), makes me not like/trust the guy, so I wouldn't want to take parenting advice from him. Sounds like it's worked really well for many people. It's just something where a lot of the advice seems to go against what I know works for my babies.
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