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Old 09-17-2012, 04:15 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by GEMQEMCABOOSE

We love Babywise and have been able to bless many families by teaching it: the routine and sleep cues and hunger cues as well as the common "habits" that can occur with babies and toddlers and guidance through those; that's the genius of the Ezzos in BW.
Based on this statement I also thought you were an instructor. I guess you meant informal teaching, like educating other moms about what the program has to offer? Just curious. Thanks for all the info!

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Old 09-17-2012, 04:21 PM   #222
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Re: babywise

Ok. Leslie just made me a believer. I have for 4 months fed Levi to get him to sleep. He ate 5oz 90 minutes ago. Played. I laid him down cause I know he is tired. He whined for 30 seconds maybe. One little cry, then he was out. I can't believe it.

ETA: And he woke up. Grr.
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:27 PM   #223
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Based on this statement I also thought you were an instructor. I guess you meant informal teaching, like educating other moms about what the program has to offer? Just curious. Thanks for all the info!
Yup, I "teach it" several times a month, "talk it" several times a week, and "live it" with my babies and my friends daily. You don't register for my classes or pick up my business card, I have no certification. You share with me at the park how badly your baby sleeps and how tired you are or you ask how I get my 4 year old to happily nap daily for 2 hours or hear me mention to another mom at school how its naptime and we are out of commission for 3 hours in the afternoon or your friend told you how scheduling has blessed her and revolutionized her life. That's how we teach. We live and talk and share.
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:33 PM   #224
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Ok. Leslie just made me a believer. I have for 4 months fed Levi to get him to sleep. He ate 5oz 90 minutes ago. Played. I laid him down cause I know he is tired. He whined for 30 seconds maybe. One little cry, then he was out. I can't believe it.

ETA: And he woke up. Grr.
Yay for a big feeding and easily falling asleep, that's progress. Its baby steps, like Rome, it wasn't built in a day. Its a marathon and a process, one step at a time. 90 minutes of a happy baby is a win, 5oz at a feeding for a refluxer that doesn't like to eat is a win, 30 second whining and falling asleep on his own is a win!! Its OK he awakened, he's little, you're just starting, he's refluxy, its the worst time of the day. No failures here. We are works in progress and I count several wins. Love him and help him as you do everyday. You and he did great Megan! He's 4 months, not a newbie, he's got 4 months of habits and learning to work through. Be patient and consistent and love him and it'll work out. Good job!!
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:36 PM   #225
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Yay for a big feeding and easily falling asleep, that's progress. Its baby steps, like Rome, it wasn't built in a day. Its a marathon and a process, one step at a time. 90 minutes of a happy baby is a win, 5oz at a feeding for a refluxer that doesn't like to eat is a win, 30 second whining and falling asleep on his own is a win!! Its OK he awakened, he's little, you're just starting, he's refluxy, its the worst time of the day. No failures here. We are works in progress and I count several wins. Love him and help him as you do everyday. You and he did great Megan! He's 4 months, not a newbie, he's got 4 months of habits and learning to work through. Be patient and consistent and love him and it'll work out. Good job!!
I'd like to "like" this. Thanks! Big Big Thanks. I am so proud he had a good feeding finally. Thank you Zantac.
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:10 PM   #226
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Oh I'm sure, at least very hopeful, that that's not an accurate representation. But the replies that I read before I'd had my fill were supportive. No! Don't support that if it isn't what your training method is about. Like, if someone said, 'I don't know what to do. I woke to muffled cries because the decorative pillow on my bed fell on the baby's face tuesday morning, then I woke up half laying on her Thursday, and she fell in the floor the next three days.' I would really hope that even the most die-hard AP advocate would say, 'honey no! This isn't working for you. Let's find something else.' Not, oh I'll pray for you. Eek! More like pray that the baby gets comforted somewhere. Poor kid.

I'm not arguing against you though, Terra. I don't want it to seem that way. just arguing against that horrible link. I'm not into baby wise, ezzos, pearls, rubies, or anything. I just do what gets me sleep. I likes my sleep.
ITA with all of this! If one of my friends said that happened to her little one, I would urge her to use a crib. There are nights that I put my lo in a crib if I am just exhausted. There is a safe way to cosleep, but it isn't for everyone.

We are a whatever gets me my sleep family as well. For us, it was co-sleeping and keeping the buffet open all-night.

That link and the stories like it are way too extreme. That breaks my heart. If you are meeting your child's needs, then do whatever works for you.
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:50 PM   #227
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I‘ve just finished reading the thread, and I just want to add that while I lean more towards the baby whisperer than babywise (I had an old edition of the book though) all three of my older children were scheduled and I nursed for between 10-15 months with each of them. I pumped to relieve engorgement when my milk was coming in and when I would be away and needed a bottle for the baby, that‘s about it. I never specifically took anything to boost supply, and they sttn between 2-4 months old. I always nursed pretty much on demand for the first 6-8 weeks to establish good supply, and then put them on a schedule. And AF returned at 6 months, 9 months, and 9 months. Baby #4 is only 4 weeks old so I can‘t tell you much about him yet
And structured naptimes are awesome for me, I know when is a good time to book appointments or run errands, etc. And we often will go out in the evenings, to friends‘ places for movies or games or something, and we lay the kids down there to sleep, and bundle them into their own beds when we get home.
ETA just wanted to throw my experience out there
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:44 PM   #228
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In the end it's like Leslie said, it works for some families and it doesn't for others. We are all different in our thoughts, our views and approaches. But it doesn't mean one is better and the other is terrible. It means we all have different needs.

The arguing to try to get a point across is really a moot point because of that. If you don't like purposeful scheduling, don't do it. If you like routine but flexibility work with that. If you like a strict schedule go with that.

Heck even though Leslie and I had vastly different approaches, I can see why some of my friends and other parents chose the BW route. I totally let my kiddos guide me. That was my choice. And I was seriously blessed that they turned out to be schedule/routine oriented children. I found that they just feel apart and still do if we don't keep to a serious schedule. If we are out somewhere, by 5-6pm, they ASK to go home. They are tired, want baths and want bedtime. None of that is my own doing. I totally fed on demand, let them snack. My youngest would nurse for an hour at a time.

Now let me say if I had not been blessed with good sleepers [on their own again] from the get go, AND I was working then full time like I do now, I can honestly say that I think scheduling would be very tempting.

In the end, it's silly to make this yet another mommy war. To not understand the other side is OK. To think that the other side is wrong and continually pointing it out? Not OK.

The truth is, yeah many BW moms might dry up with BF'ing, but you know what, much to many chagrins, BF'ing is important but not such a huge deal that they want to center their life around that one act. And that's OK too. If BF'ing is a main goal in another's life, GREAT! Go for it. It was extremely important to me with my second who nursed until he was 3 years old! But I have friends who just were not as invested but it doesn't bother me because it's their call, their life.

I just encourage all moms of all paths to continue seeking what is right for *your* family
I don't see this happening at all in this thread. And, I think it is pretty obvious that the last sentence is what everyone is doing here.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:08 PM   #229
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Re: babywise

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But if we KNOW that the biological imperative is to nurse well past a year--for example, knowing what we know about first-century Jews, we can surmise that Jesus was probably nursed to age 3 or 4--what is the developmental, scientific, anthropological basis for parenting in a way that would sabotage that? If the child's body and brain are wired to do it, what's with the argument that Christian parents ought to be "training"-minded from birth, when that training involves a routine that runs contrary to his physiology? Just because his metabolism CAN adapt doesn't mean it should, I guess I'm saying. I'm wary of the long-term effects, although, in perspective, there are worse things that people do to babies than feed them breastmilk only four times a day.

Haha! It sounds so strange to me! I think my six-month olds probably nursed four times an hour.
That is b/c 6 months is a HUGE growth spurt.

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Yes, you are quite convinced of your way, I can see that. But here's the thing you can schedule a baby and we do. You are not correct. Our LC is amazing and she is amazed at how well our babies do and our success at BFing (she has seen 7 of us). She tells us how contrary we are to all the LLL materials and lactation info out there, but she has admitted she cannot argue with our success. So I would encourage you, that perhaps, there are lots of babies thriving on breastmilk who aren't nursed around the clock or every 30 minutes or in any other way you think should be or has to be. See, it can be different. I live it, lots of other moms live it, lots of scheduled BF babies prove it. It doesn't have to appeal to you, that's ok. Your way doesn't appeal to us. But we can acknowledge your way also works and afford you the freedom to do as you do without condemnation, why can't you afford anyone else that same support?
But in the same way you have to realize that there are lots of babies who aren't told when they can eat and who are not nursed around the clock for 30 minutes.

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And this would be the mommy war additive that I was talking about. Your way is the only right way. Again....the truth is, BF'ing while important to the point of putting all parental needs aside is not as important to other people.

We are not in the single and early digit centuries anymore. There ARE alternative ways to feed, even if we don't agree.
And again....I thought BF'ing was vitally important which is why I did the child centered route. HOWEVER, I do not think anyone is *wrong* if they do it differently.
But she is correct. A pump can not stimulate milk supply like a baby's jaw. No one can say the opposite. Sure you can use a pump in addition to nursing to amp up milk supply or to stash bm, but the baby is the best for it.

Some of us just don't think we should be the ones telling our babies when they should eat, especially if it is for the parent's convienence. I'm not saying they are wrong, but it just doesn't seem right.....to me.

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That's the thing, though. She's not saying anyone is doing it wrong. She's just answering questions and saying what has worked for HER and her social circle. It's everyone else who has come to try to point out that their AP'd child 'sleeps just fine, thank you very much'. (<-- humor).

It's almost as if the AP mamas on this board are on the defensive because this sweet lady has had success with Babywise. That her children *aren't* FTT and that they ARE happy, healthy, and well-rounded.

I'll be the first to admit that my initial impression of BW was a hungry child who was left to cry himself to sleep for every nap and all through the night. I now know that there is a GENTLE way to incorporate BW's teachings into your parenting philosophy.

I, myself, could have used some of this advice when my 9 month old EBF daughter was waking up every.single 30-45 minutes to nurse ALL NIGHT LONG. I was that mom who was falling asleep randomly, throughout the day, from fatigue. The mom who dozed off twice while at a stop light. The mom who started to dread nursing because my baby was latched on every waking second. The mom who had reached her breaking point on several occasions, and put her child in her crib to scream just so she (me) could lock herself in her room to sob & pray because she felt so out of control and so damned angry at her child who just WOULD. NOT. SLEEP!

So there you have it. The ugly side of trying to be an attached parent. What worked for my son did NOT work AT ALL for my daughter.

I can tell you another thing. If I do have another child, I will do things differently. I will try to incorporate the eat-awake-sleep routine in the early days. I will also make adjustments if I feel my baby's nutritional and emotional needs are not being met to my standards. And if my baby can just sleep a few hour stretches by the time s/he's 6 months old, I will consider that a complete success.
I did not do babywise. But my babies did an eat/awake/sleep routine. I never scheduled any of their feedings. I burped them every time after they nursed and then changed their diaper (instead of before nursing), they were roused enough to be awake for the time they needed and then I layed them down. I really don't think scheduling their feedings is the key. I think it is making sure they go to sleep BEFORE they are tired. And this is before they even showed signs of being tired. The key is to lay them down within 1 1/2 - 2 hours of the time they first woke up. That includes their morning routine of nursing, burping, changing, dressing, etc. Then lay them down again within 2 hours of the next time they wake and repeat until they go to bed for the night. After I nurse, burp, change and lay them to bed for their night sleep, I will go and do a dreamfeed right before I go to bed.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:22 PM   #230
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Re: babywise

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We do get up and feed the baby. Ours are often perfectly content to go 12 hours without nursing by 6 months. We happily continue dreamfeeding for another 4-6 months to maintain supply. We are not pumping unless we choose to surrender the dreamfeed (I don't) or our babies simply will not nurse at that time any longer. (they commonly stop at 8-10 months, often depending upon solids consumption).
So, they stop nursing at 8-10 months b/c of solids or if you don't continue to pump? BM or formula is the main source of nutrition through the entire first year. Solids are only for introduction.

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For clarification, I never mentioned supplements as in supplemental nourishment for the babies. I was referring to the use of supplements to help with milk supply: oatmeal, fenugreek, calcium, brewers yeast, etc. I have known lots of moms who nursed 6 months without a pump or supplements and are bw moms. For those of aiming for long term supply, we goose to ensure that with some pumping if we choose or an extra nursing as I mentioned. I pump in the beginning for my own piece of mind and to donate. I have always been one to keep 500oz of milk frozen at all times in case I got sick, had an emergency or some other unforeseen situation. No pumping is necessary, many of us choose to for our own reasons and because our long term bfing relationship is important to us as yours is to you.
You are still supposed to nurse even when you are sick. It isn't a reason not to nurse. I remember having a horrible stomach flue when dd3 was a few months old and I just laid in bed when she needed to nurse.

And unless I misread your post above this one, our long term bf'ing relationship must be different. Long term to me is well over a year. You said yours usually wean by 8-10 months?
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