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Old 12-13-2012, 10:55 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by s@hmommy

As a circing pregnant mamma who is open to being educated on the matter I am going to say that the first two comparisons are just ridiculous inflammatory comments. RIC exists in the US, so these comparisons are silly to even bring up, they make no sense. I believe that the posters that made them are well aware and are really not trying to further the intact cause, they have a superior mindset and could care less as long as they think they are right.

The last one is a matter of opinion, I along with many others still say it is a parenting choice, and by telling me it is not seems ridiculous as well. Once again RIC exists, so I get a choice. Your opinion on whose choice it is holds no water with me so using that as a supporting reason again is useless.

If you use these types of inflammatory comments in any of your reasoning I will guarantee you have lost my interest. If you are truly out to help a cause you already know this though, constantly putting people down for their choices and attempting to make yourself feel superior doesn't do any good, but you already know that. If you provide factual and reliable (some of the sources I see a lot are questionable imo) information you have a better shot at getting peoples attention. It looks like a lot of you intactivist are not really out to help a cause but out looking for some entertainment for the day by being rude and nasty to those who make choices that differ from you own.
ITA!!! And there ARE women who have their breasts removed to prevent getting breast cancer! No they don't do it at birth because there's nothing to remove! Duh!

OP- this is you and your husband's choice, not the women on DS. The Plastibell method is not the most desired and I'm really surprised its still used TBH. Our Ped did it in his office, with plenty of pain relief and waited for it to work before starting, and he was never strapped to a board and left alone to cry. He was with dh, the dr and a nurse the entire time and I was in the next room. Having had 6 sons and going through this 5 times (twins first) I think a lot of people only see one worst case scenario story of this and spread that misinformation. There have been nurses who've posted that they assist in circ's and pain relief is ALWAYS used. This truly varies by geographical location. Every baby of mine has had local used during over the last 16 yrs. We have never had crying, extremely fussy babies after. We waited until after 7 days with 4 of the 6. Healing was quick with every one of them. We never had a single complication. No one I know has either and really, I would say 85% of the boys I know have been circ'd. So while its dropping in some areas, it's still done on a daily basis in many, many places. One of the biggest reasons it's dropped in CA is because Medicaid stopped covering it. People don't always have an extra $300-$1500 to pay for it so they just don't do it. That's great, but that's not because they've been educated and made that choice, it's because that choice has been made for them if they can't financially swing it. Almost ALL private insurance companies cover it still and in fact, the reason our Ped had to do it in his office with #6 is there were too many babies being circ'd the day in the hospital we were being released and we wouldn't be able to leave until a couple hours after it was done and their time frame was like 6-8pm until they could start and then they wouldn't release us that late or something. It's a choice we've made, a choice we're happy with and a choice our boys are happy with. They were all old enough to talk about it with when we had #6 and honestly, our twins THANKED us for doing it. I have zero regret.

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:43 AM   #52
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Re: to circ or not to circ

I don't think it's weird to have your DS intact if other men in the family are circed.

Personally I would be worried about having a circ by a doctor you don't really know that well. If you HAVE to get it done you should go to a pediatric urologist instead of any doctor that will do it. And I think you should talk to the pediatric urologist before you have it done, to discuss any complications that might occur. IMHO, that is so much more informative and helpful than posts in a forum. I do not find circ to be torturous and mutilation, but I do think we need to revisit the practice of RIC due to the complications that occur.

Also, in some places circ is still very common. In LA lots of hospitals have circ on the list of things to do before you leave the hospital. I guess it just depends on where you live. Not that it's right or wrong, but that's how some places are.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:55 PM   #53
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Re: to circ or not to circ

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ITA!!! And there ARE women who have their breasts removed to prevent getting breast cancer! No they don't do it at birth because there's nothing to remove! Duh!

our twins THANKED us for doing it. I have zero regret.
Breast cancer occurs in glandular tissue, which is present at birth, and which is why men can get it, because they also have glandular tissue. Incidentally, men have a higher incidence of breast cancer than penile cancer, which you did not mention, but which some people do trot out as a reason to circumcise. And the key point which you missed is that the women to whom the breasts are attached are the ones who are making the decision. My mother had breast cancer, and yet she did not opt to have my breasts removed. See the difference? And cancer can kill you - having a tight foreskin will not kill you.

On the topic of your twins: they're what, 15? So maybe they've had sex, or maybe not. Either way, they have precious little experience with the functioning of their penis. At their age, they are mainly concerned with fitting in, which is normal, and also one of the biggest reasons circumcision continues. Unfortunately, some of the more common effects of circumcision, like erectile dysfunction and lack of sensation, do not show up until a man is older. So honestly, I am glad your sons are happy with theirs, despite their probably total ignorance on the matter, but I know so many men who are very unhappy to be circumcised that it is only logical to leave the decision up to the man whose penis it is.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:05 PM   #54
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Re: to circ or not to circ

Not having one myself, I have never cared for a penis before I had ds1. We chose to leave him intact, because there was no compelling reason for me to do otherwise. Our family doc recommends against it, and its not done at the hospital. I have found care of the penis to be equally easy to take care of as all his other body parts. Wash it, keep it as clean as possible, but otherwise leave it alone. So far no problems I either him or ds2. The only problem was with ds2 when he had a high fever and needed a catheter. Neither of the nurses knew how to do it with a forskin there. and then i got a lecture for not retracting and cleaning, and I told them to take it up with our doc who told me otherwise and left it at that. So i would say to just be well educated and prepared for ithers who arent so educated. Basically all that is to say I'm happy with our decision.

Dh is also intact, which I am positive swayed him into keeping our boys intact. I still did my own research on the subject though. Dh has ever had a problem with his as far as I know. As his wife, I also have never had a problem with it.

So there is what I have to contribute. good luck with making your decision!

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Old 12-13-2012, 02:11 PM   #55
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Re: to circ or not to circ

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Not having one myself, I have never cared for a penis before I had ds1. We chose to leave him intact, because there was no compelling reason for me to do otherwise. Our family doc recommends against it, and its not done at the hospital. I have found care of the penis to be equally easy to take care of as all his other body parts. Wash it, keep it as clean as possible, but otherwise leave it alone. So far no problems I either him or ds2. The only problem was with ds2 when he had a high fever and needed a catheter. Neither of the nurses knew how to do it with a forskin there. and then i got a lecture for not retracting and cleaning, and I told them to take it up with our doc who told me otherwise and left it at that. So i would say to just be well educated and prepared for ithers who arent so educated. Basically all that is to say I'm happy with our decision.

Dh is also intact, which I am positive swayed him into keeping our boys intact. I still did my own research on the subject though. Dh has ever had a problem with his as far as I know. As his wife, I also have never had a problem with it.

So there is what I have to contribute. good luck with making your decision!
The kind people at Doctors Opposing Circumcision will send a packet to that hospital/nurse so that they do not give out incorrect harmful information like that anymore. You should contact them and ask them to do so, because if a parent listens to their bad advice to force it back and clean under it, it can seriously harm the child.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:14 PM   #56
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Re: to circ or not to circ

Quote:
Originally Posted by s@hmommy View Post
As a circing pregnant mamma who is open to being educated on the matter I am going to say that the first two comparisons are just ridiculous inflammatory comments. RIC exists in the US, so these comparisons are silly to even bring up, they make no sense. I believe that the posters that made them are well aware and are really not trying to further the intact cause, they have a superior mindset and could care less as long as they think they are right.

The last one is a matter of opinion, I along with many others still say it is a parenting choice, and by telling me it is not seems ridiculous as well. Once again RIC exists, so I get a choice. Your opinion on whose choice it is holds no water with me so using that as a supporting reason again is useless.

If you use these types of inflammatory comments in any of your reasoning I will guarantee you have lost my interest. If you are truly out to help a cause you already know this though, constantly putting people down for their choices and attempting to make yourself feel superior doesn't do any good, but you already know that. If you provide factual and reliable (some of the sources I see a lot are questionable imo) information you have a better shot at getting peoples attention. It looks like a lot of you intactivist are not really out to help a cause but out looking for some entertainment for the day by being rude and nasty to those who make choices that differ from you own.
Actually, you have me totally wrong. I don't care what you, or anyone else, does with their sons penis. I don't judge, I don't frown upon and I think it is a matter of choice for the parent.

I am not circing any future sons of mine because I don't believe its the right thing to do. I don't judge or look down upon my close friend who has a circed son because she did what she thought was the right thing to do.

I am drawing comparisons that make sense to me. If they don't make sense to you, disregard them. Just don't accuse me of being inflammatory because it hits a nerve with you.

I am NOT an intactivist. I am a person with very little exposure to circumcision so therefore I find it foreign and, to be frank, odd.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:40 PM   #57
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Re: to circ or not to circ

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Actually, you have me totally wrong. I don't care what you, or anyone else, does with their sons penis. I don't judge, I don't frown upon and I think it is a matter of choice for the parent.

I am not circing any future sons of mine because I don't believe its the right thing to do. I don't judge or look down upon my close friend who has a circed son because she did what she thought was the right thing to do.

I am drawing comparisons that make sense to me. If they don't make sense to you, disregard them. Just don't accuse me of being inflammatory because it hits a nerve with you.

I am NOT an intactivist. I am a person with very little exposure to circumcision so therefore I find it foreign and, to be frank, odd.
If you have not read any of the circ threads here and you innocently said that not knowing the response that it normally gets then I apologize for putting you in the same category as others who do use it for that reason. Now you do know and in the future you will know saying it is anger provoking and you can choose whether or not to make that type of comment. But, ftr, it is an inflammatory comment on this subject for many.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:23 PM   #58
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Re: to circ or not to circ

Quote:
Originally Posted by s@hmommy View Post
As a circing pregnant mamma who is open to being educated on the matter I am going to say that the first two comparisons are just ridiculous inflammatory comments. RIC exists in the US, so these comparisons are silly to even bring up, they make no sense. I believe that the posters that made them are well aware and are really not trying to further the intact cause, they have a superior mindset and could care less as long as they think they are right.

The last one is a matter of opinion, I along with many others still say it is a parenting choice, and by telling me it is not seems ridiculous as well. Once again RIC exists, so I get a choice. Your opinion on whose choice it is holds no water with me so using that as a supporting reason again is useless.

If you use these types of inflammatory comments in any of your reasoning I will guarantee you have lost my interest. If you are truly out to help a cause you already know this though, constantly putting people down for their choices and attempting to make yourself feel superior doesn't do any good, but you already know that. If you provide factual and reliable (some of the sources I see a lot are questionable imo) information you have a better shot at getting peoples attention. It looks like a lot of you intactivist are not really out to help a cause but out looking for some entertainment for the day by being rude and nasty to those who make choices that differ from you own.
I am really sorry you feel this way. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to express why one feels circumcision isn't right without offending others. I totally get why circ'ing mothers often feel attacked.

For me, when you look at the pros and cons of circumcision, the decision is impossible to make. Everybody has a bias and you rarely find anything that is truly neutral. Neither option (circumcision or leaving him intact) is a guarantee they will never have a problem. Because the benefits vs risks argument is so complicated, I feel the safer option is to leave my sons intact and let them choose for themselves.

When we first started researching circumcision my DH's response was the typical "there's nothing wrong with me, so of course we'll circ our sons." Now he admits that he didn't even understand what circumcision or a foreskin were!! After researching, and learning about the benefits of a foreskin, he is very disappointed that the choice was taken from him. He doesn't have any complications from him circumcision, but he says if sex is this good now, imagine what it could have been like!

Because my DH expresses regret over his parents' choice, I could not circumcise my sons over worry they would later wish I hadn't.

As far as the yeast infection comment-- I think it's a valid point. Boys are less likely to get UTIs and yeast infections then girls, and circumcision is often the suggested remedy for chronic problems. Yet, a doctor would NEVER suggest to a woman, who has lots of folds and creases as well, to cut off part of her genitals, even though the same argument could be make that it would make the area easier to clean and more hygienic. There is a double standard. As a pp mentioned, we don't value the foreskin. Doctors, parents and even men themselves do not know or understand what the foreskin does, what role it plays during intercourse, or how it's removal affects the penis. Those facts are rarely taken into consideration. Instead there is a mindset that the foreskin is useless, and all it does is cause potential problems. And that's simply not true.

The benefits of circumcision are so minimal that we just can't justify cutting ALL baby boys. For many, it's simply considered a cosmetic procedure. So if we can't guarantee that it will benefit the child, who are we to make the decision to cut it off?
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:44 PM   #59
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Re: to circ or not to circ

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Originally Posted by s@hmommy View Post
If you have not read any of the circ threads here and you innocently said that not knowing the response that it normally gets then I apologize for putting you in the same category as others who do use it for that reason. Now you do know and in the future you will know saying it is anger provoking and you can choose whether or not to make that type of comment. But, ftr, it is an inflammatory comment on this subject for many.
Do you really think that people use talking about circumcision in order to make others feel bad? I do not. I did not see that anywhere in here. Your original angry response quoted two people who were comparing mastectomies to treat breast cancer and one who was comparing treatment for male vs. female yeast infections. How is that inflammatory? They are very valid challenges to the idea of circumcision as a disease preventive, but they are not designed to anger nor are they inflammatory.

Might I suggest that if it upsets you too much to ever read arguments against circumcision, then you should not read threads about circumcision. It is impossible to silence all discussion on the topic because you find it upsetting, and far easier for you to protect yourself by not clicking or responding.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:44 PM   #60
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Re: to circ or not to circ

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I am really sorry you feel this way. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to express why one feels circumcision isn't right without offending others. I totally get why circ'ing mothers often feel attacked.

For me, when you look at the pros and cons of circumcision, the decision is impossible to make. Everybody has a bias and you rarely find anything that is truly neutral. Neither option (circumcision or leaving him intact) is a guarantee they will never have a problem. Because the benefits vs risks argument is so complicated, I feel the safer option is to leave my sons intact and let them choose for themselves.

When we first started researching circumcision my DH's response was the typical "there's nothing wrong with me, so of course we'll circ our sons." Now he admits that he didn't even understand what circumcision or a foreskin were!! After researching, and learning about the benefits of a foreskin, he is very disappointed that the choice was taken from him. He doesn't have any complications from him circumcision, but he says if sex is this good now, imagine what it could have been like!

Because my DH expresses regret over his parents' choice, I could not circumcise my sons over worry they would later wish I hadn't.

As far as the yeast infection comment-- I think it's a valid point. Boys are less likely to get UTIs and yeast infections then girls, and circumcision is often the suggested remedy for chronic problems. Yet, a doctor would NEVER suggest to a woman, who has lots of folds and creases as well, to cut off part of her genitals, even though the same argument could be make that it would make the area easier to clean and more hygienic. There is a double standard. As a pp mentioned, we don't value the foreskin. Doctors, parents and even men themselves do not know or understand what the foreskin does, what role it plays during intercourse, or how it's removal affects the penis. Those facts are rarely taken into consideration. Instead there is a mindset that the foreskin is useless, and all it does is cause potential problems. And that's simply not true.

The benefits of circumcision are so minimal that we just can't justify cutting ALL baby boys. For many, it's simply considered a cosmetic procedure. So if we can't guarantee that it will benefit the child, who are we to make the decision to cut it off?
First, I want to say you are one of the few anti-circ momma's that I think is generally respectful while expressing your opinion, you are one of the few I would bother to take seriously.

Now for an honest question-
If you are trying to promote a cause and you see time and time again that specific comparisons only evoke angry responses, why do you (general to intactivists, not you specifically) keep using them? It seems at that point it is not about the cause because making someone mad is not going to make them listen to you. It appears to be more of a jab than anything.
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