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Old 02-04-2013, 09:45 AM   #311
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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Originally Posted by jen_batten View Post
I don't think the OP was trying to imply anything. I think she was genuinely curious and ended up rather harshly attacked and judged. I do think if you haven't been there, done that then it can be hard to understand, hence the question. And I think that goes both ways...it can be hard for formula feeders to understand breastfeeding and it can be hard for breastfeeders to understand FF. Disposables users have a hard time understanding why you'd use cloth and cloth advocates have a hard time understanding why people use disposables. Asking their reasoning isn't judging or implying anything.
I don't think the cloth vs. disposable argument is a good comparison here.

A woman's body is not designed to have a diaper preference but it is designed breast feed. I can make the choice to use disposables on my son and not feel at all guilty when other mum's sing the praises of cloth.

For someone who has had struggles with breastfeeding or chosen not to do it at all I can understand why they would feel judged or offended by this post and others like it. It's a very personal issue and even the most well-meaning of posts can be offensive. I think it is in our human nature to get defensive when we feel like we are being attacked. For an issue as sensitive as this it has to be expected that a thread of this nature would result in hurt feelings.

All that said, as other posters have mentioned, I 100% believe it goes both ways. Both sides can be just as offensive as they try to defend their point of view.

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Old 02-04-2013, 09:57 AM   #312
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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I am quoting you only because you were the last one, but it's the tone of the OP and subsequent responses that make it feel judgy. Words are important. If I flipped this to homeschooling or not vaccinating and said "I just cannot understand how any reasonable or intelligent person would deprive their child of the diversity of the public school system or purposely put them in harm's way by not vaccinating. Most people are not qualified to teach and are offering sub-par education and most people who don't vaccinate REALLY don't have any medical reason not to, they are just being selfish. Why would anyone do that??" I wouldn't really be asking a legitimate question. I would be loading that question.

Plenty of words have been thrown around here - uneducated, selfish, garbage, sub-par, etc.

I am just putting that out there for comparison's sake. If you BF and genuinely don't think this thread is judgy, does that help you understand? Would you be offended by the HS and no-vax comments? I am just trying to re-frame it.
I am a homeschooler. If you asked me that with snark, I would give you my reasoning with snark, but I would still give you my honest reasoning without saying that it was judgy or awful, or whatever because what is the point in that. The best you can do is to try to help people understand actual reasoning so the next time they will have a more broad range view of people choices and experiences. And it's been a while since I read the op, but I didn't remember her being terribly snarky. It could be because I bf though or it could be because I would rather assume that when people ask a question they are curious and want answers.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:59 AM   #313
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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Originally Posted by Bellaroo View Post
I don't think the cloth vs. disposable argument is a good comparison here.

A woman's body is not designed to have a diaper preference but it is designed breast feed. I can make the choice to use disposables on my son and not feel at all guilty when other mum's sing the praises of cloth.

For someone who has had struggles with breastfeeding or chosen not to do it at all I can understand why they would feel judged or offended by this post and others like it. It's a very personal issue and even the most well-meaning of posts can be offensive. I think it is in our human nature to get defensive when we feel like we are being attacked. For an issue as sensitive as this it has to be expected that a thread of this nature would result in hurt feelings.

All that said, as other posters have mentioned, I 100% believe it goes both ways. Both sides can be just as offensive as they try to defend their point of view.
I don't believe that to be true. Those that have formula fed, no matter the reason, are geared only toward the negative comments about formula. There is a lot of emotion as you said. Most have argued that while formula isn't perfect, neither is breastfeeding.

My issue is with the breastfeeding advocates that come on here talking about how disgusting formula is and looking down on women that choose to formula feed. Do you really think that accomplishes anything but alienating people and making those that WANT to breastfeed feel worse than they already do?

Please, please can we figure out a way to advocate for a cause without making mothers feel like failures?

With that, I am bowing out of this thread because this topic is hitting way too close to home.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:07 AM   #314
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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Originally Posted by Bellaroo View Post
I don't think the cloth vs. disposable argument is a good comparison here.

A woman's body is not designed to have a diaper preference but it is designed breast feed. I can make the choice to use disposables on my son and not feel at all guilty when other mum's sing the praises of cloth.

For someone who has had struggles with breastfeeding or chosen not to do it at all I can understand why they would feel judged or offended by this post and others like it. It's a very personal issue and even the most well-meaning of posts can be offensive. I think it is in our human nature to get defensive when we feel like we are being attacked. For an issue as sensitive as this it has to be expected that a thread of this nature would result in hurt feelings.

All that said, as other posters have mentioned, I 100% believe it goes both ways. Both sides can be just as offensive as they try to defend their point of view.
But she wasn't saying that she doesn't understand why people who have struggled or cannot breastfeed stop. She (op) was asking why some people choose not to try. And I guess people can take anything offensive if they want. My son is a late and poor reader. Should I get my feathers in a wad when people post about how smart their two year old is? Or their four year old who taught themselves to read? Nope. And I don't. People are different. They live different lives and make different choices. It's fine. I can't count the amount of bad things that have been said about me on ds because I spank. It's fine. It's not effecting or changing my life. If we only talked about the subjects on here that didn't offend or upset someone, then we wouldn't ever talk about anything at all.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:13 AM   #315
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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Yeah, I don't see comparing us to dogs or cats but we definitely should be looking at other primates. If you look at our fellow apes though, we do see some similarities. In many non-primate mammals, the extent of the mother-child bond is nursing. Babies are born, they nurse, mama kicks them out of the nest and they're on their own. We, as primates, are different. Our bonds with our offspring are so much more complex. Mother-child bonds are usually lifelong. Mothering happens even if nursing doesn't. There is a bond beyond just nursing, and some mama primates (humans included obviously) just don't have that desire to nurse.
great points! additionally, mothering is much more complex and lasts so much longer than with primates. for instance, I have four kids under 6 years old....no where near old enough to "push them out of the nest" LOL we mother numerous small ones at a time and it takes them much longer to be able to survive on their own. there is a lot that can affect a nursing relationship....like having enough time for all the kids you have.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:13 AM   #316
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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Originally Posted by Hungry Caterpillar View Post
I am quoting you only because you were the last one, but it's the tone of the OP and subsequent responses that make it feel judgy. Words are important. If I flipped this to homeschooling or not vaccinating and said "I just cannot understand how any reasonable or intelligent person would deprive their child of the diversity of the public school system or purposely put them in harm's way by not vaccinating. Most people are not qualified to teach and are offering sub-par education and most people who don't vaccinate REALLY don't have any medical reason not to, they are just being selfish. Why would anyone do that??" I wouldn't really be asking a legitimate question. I would be loading that question.

Plenty of words have been thrown around here - uneducated, selfish, garbage, sub-par, etc.

I am just putting that out there for comparison's sake. If you BF and genuinely don't think this thread is judgy, does that help you understand? Would you be offended by the HS and no-vax comments? I am just trying to re-frame it.
Nope those comments wouldn't offend me. I would just assume the person who is making those comments obviously hasn't a clue what they are talking about. As I tell my kids people are entitled to their own opinions no matter how wrong they may be.because of course my opinion is always right.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:16 AM   #317
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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Pretty sure we are also the only species sitting on the internet judging other mothers.

I suppose I fall into the "legitimate" formula use camp since I only made less than 4oz per day with all the herbs and such, but it certainly doesn't make me feel any less crapped on to know that the choice was out of my hands.

I have to wonder for all the people who are basically intimating that mothers should just self sacrifice and breastfeed at all costs - do you truly think that this is more important than being a healthy, able parent in all the other senses? I place a lot of stock in all the other parenting abilities I have that don't encompass using my boobs, and I certainly don't think my husband or other people in my life are a substitute for a healthy and happy Mommy. Seems bizarre to me that there are people out there who, in some cases, would rather a child have breastmilk and a miserable mother than formula and a happy mother who is present.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:32 PM   #318
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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I don't believe that to be true. Those that have formula fed, no matter the reason, are geared only toward the negative comments about formula. There is a lot of emotion as you said. Most have argued that while formula isn't perfect, neither is breastfeeding.

My issue is with the breastfeeding advocates that come on here talking about how disgusting formula is and looking down on women that choose to formula feed. Do you really think that accomplishes anything but alienating people and making those that WANT to breastfeed feel worse than they already do?

Please, please can we figure out a way to advocate for a cause without making mothers feel like failures?

With that, I am bowing out of this thread because this topic is hitting way too close to home.
To the bolded: I think that is human nature though. We are all geared to see potential accusations about ourselves and our actions first. I'm not saying it's right - it's just the way it is.

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But she wasn't saying that she doesn't understand why people who have struggled or cannot breastfeed stop. She (op) was asking why some people choose not to try. And I guess people can take anything offensive if they want. My son is a late and poor reader. Should I get my feathers in a wad when people post about how smart their two year old is? Or their four year old who taught themselves to read? Nope. And I don't. People are different. They live different lives and make different choices. It's fine. I can't count the amount of bad things that have been said about me on ds because I spank. It's fine. It's not effecting or changing my life. If we only talked about the subjects on here that didn't offend or upset someone, then we wouldn't ever talk about anything at all.
I'm not at all suggesting that these topics should be avoided. Just giving my perspective as to why they might be offensive to some.

I'm not offended by the OP's question at all but I can see why others might feel bad about the conversation as a whole.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:50 PM   #319
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

The problem is that too many people who advocate for BFing seem to feel the need to do so by making formula out to be a completely awful choice that no reasonable person could possibly consider. And that's the tone of the OP. The OP doesn't use these exact words but the tone comes across as 'formula is such an awful alternative that I cannot possibly comprehend why anyone would would consider such terrible option.' And then when you ad in that the OP is "sad" for those who choose to FF and that really seems to seal the deal. My 17 year old who was FF from birth doesn't need anyone's pity over how she was fed for the first year of her life.


My DH tends to do something similar when he makes a choice about something. When we bought our house, instead of explaining that we chose our builder because the location and price were right and they had a floor plan we liked, etc., DH had to turn around on the rest of the builders and talk about how awful they were. He would talk about how this one had a lawsuit against them for XYZ and that one gave a friend a terrible experience, etc etc.

Too many people forget that it's ok to advocate FOR something without being AGAINST the other options.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:09 PM   #320
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Re: Deciding not to breast feed in advancei

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Originally Posted by happysmileylady View Post
The problem is that too many people who advocate for BFing seem to feel the need to do so by making formula out to be a completely awful choice that no reasonable person could possibly consider. And that's the tone of the OP. The OP doesn't use these exact words but the tone comes across as 'formula is such an awful alternative that I cannot possibly comprehend why anyone would would consider such terrible option.' And then when you ad in that the OP is "sad" for those who choose to FF and that really seems to seal the deal. My 17 year old who was FF from birth doesn't need anyone's pity over how she was fed for the first year of her life.


My DH tends to do something similar when he makes a choice about something. When we bought our house, instead of explaining that we chose our builder because the location and price were right and they had a floor plan we liked, etc., DH had to turn around on the rest of the builders and talk about how awful they were. He would talk about how this one had a lawsuit against them for XYZ and that one gave a friend a terrible experience, etc etc.

Too many people forget that it's ok to advocate FOR something without being AGAINST the other options.
I see what you're saying. That is kind of a tough line to walk though, espeically when you are firmly in one camp it's hard not to point out certain things. Almost like justifiying yourself. And that is true all over the board.... The ERF car seat pushers will show you videos of kids that died while forward facing, the anti-circ people will scream mutilation, the spanker people will scream abused, warped children. And just so no one gets offended at those things....I am not an ERF, we had DS circed, and we do spank.

So how do you get your point across without downing the other side. Even just "breastmilk is best" can set off some people who are sensitive if they are going through that struggle right now or have been through it recently. And it makes it that much harder since you can't hear somebody's tone. I guess if I had my way I'd tell everyone to put on their big girl panties and move on. Not everyone has to agree with you about everything and that's okay.

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