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Old 03-26-2013, 06:09 PM   #21
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

I have heard many people say if it were natural then animals would do it.

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Old 03-26-2013, 06:12 PM   #22
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Interesting about the humping and dominance. I never understood why some female dogs humped when that isn't how they act during sex. Now I get it. Learn something new every day! As far as the OP I have never heard that said so I can't comment on that.

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Old 03-26-2013, 06:15 PM   #23
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

Quote:
Originally Posted by escapethevillage View Post
Especially today..

"Homosexuality has been witnessed and observed throughout the animal world "


How does that have anything to do with humans? How is that a good argument? Animals eat poop too. They eat their babies sometimes.

Explain this argument to me.

I am all for Gay marriage and equality. I am just finding "animals do it" as a poor argument.
Humans are also animals, so the comparison is used as an example of natural behaviors found in other animals, too.

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Originally Posted by jam's mum View Post
I think maybe you're not the target audience for the point. The fact that homosexuality is common in nature is an argument against opinions that

a) homosexuality is unnatural
b) homosexuality "goes against God's plan"
c) homosexuality is a choice
d) homosexuality is a product of a degenerate culture or society

It's not a glorification of the way of the wolf, it's simply a counter-fact to correct various homophobic assumptions. If you don't share those assumptions, then you don't need to hear it
Perfectly said.

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Originally Posted by jen_batten View Post
This. I have seen same sex animals hump each other, but that doesn't make them gay, therefore that argument is useless. I've haven't seen same sex animals carry out a long term sexual relationship. It's more of "I have a need that I need to fill *right now*" than an "I'm gay" thing.
It can be both a display of dominance or a sexual preference.

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Originally Posted by iris0110 View Post
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...gayanimal.html

posting this again

Dogs hump to show dominance, not because of sexuality of any kind. This link talks about homosexuality in the animal world.
Excellent link!

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Originally Posted by jen_batten View Post
If this is directed at me....in my post I was not referring specifically to dogs. Cattle and goats and many other animals will hump a same sex animal when they are in heat. That leads me to believe that they have sexual urges that are not fulfilled rather than making me think they are gay.

As far as the national geographic article, I don't put much stock in those.
There are many other places to find the same information if NatGeo doesn't work for you. The existence of homosexuality in nature really isn't debatable.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:36 PM   #24
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

The arguments against gay marriage are specious at best, and since most people engage in the Gish Gallop form of argumentation, this just happens to be one small snippet in response to the ill conceived "homosexuality is unnatural" statement.
Good info in the thread though.
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:47 AM   #25
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

Hearing about this debacle over in the states makes me very sad.

Gay marriage has been legal for a few years here. Must say, it has done NOTHING to shake the foundation of MY marriage. All it has done is allowed people who love each other to get married.

And my opinion is, homosexuality is totally natural. You are born gay. No one would CHOOSE a life of rejection and prejudice.

Also, I never introduce myself as "hi. My name is ______ and I am heterosexual". So your sexual orientation does not matter to me AT all.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:08 AM   #26
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama*Kim View Post
I hear it in response to the "its not natural" argument. The point is just that it is natural. Animals don't just suddenly decide to be homosexual and neither do humans (or any sexuality for that matter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jam's mum View Post
I think maybe you're not the target audience for the point. The fact that homosexuality is common in nature is an argument against opinions that

a) homosexuality is unnatural
b) homosexuality "goes against God's plan"
c) homosexuality is a choice
d) homosexuality is a product of a degenerate culture or society

It's not a glorification of the way of the wolf, it's simply a counter-fact to correct various homophobic assumptions. If you don't share those assumptions, then you don't need to hear it

It still doesn't make sense as opening poster pointed out some animals on instinct eat their young. This is natural for them. It doesn't make it natural for humans. So the same would apply then for homosexuality or really anything animals do. Just because it may be natural for animals does not mean it is natural for people.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:20 AM   #27
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

Quote:
Originally Posted by qsefthuko View Post
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It still doesn't make sense as opening poster pointed out some animals on instinct eat their young. This is natural for them. It doesn't make it natural for humans. So the same would apply then for homosexuality or really anything animals do. Just because it may be natural for animals does not mean it is natural for people.
It IS natural for people. I have numerous gay and lesbian friends. The average age they knew they were gay was 4 to 5 years old. You don't choose that at 4 - 5 years old. You just are.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:28 AM   #28
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puppydog View Post
It IS natural for people. I have numerous gay and lesbian friends. The average age they knew they were gay was 4 to 5 years old. You don't choose that at 4 - 5 years old. You just are.
I am not argueing as we are never going to agree on this. However it still doesn't make sense regardless of the side of this arguement you are on to say because something is natural for an animal it follows then that it must be natural to humans. Animals do many things we as humans (normal ones that is)would never dream of doing. Killing our young, eating poop, mating with our siblings or offspring for a few examples.

I have heard the animals don't or do ? referring to many hot button topics. I don't get it regardless. Even if I agree with the persons beliefs this arguement just turns me away from them.
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:03 AM   #29
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

The argument that animals do it so it CAN'T be against god is a totally valid one.

As for the argument that people don't choose homosexuality isn't a choice is also fact.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:41 AM   #30
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Re: I hear this a lot, and don't "get it".....

I don't think it's a great comparison, either, but the validity lies in the original argument, not the counter-argument, which the OP is. I've never heard a gay person spouting, "I'm here, I'm queer, just like a bunch of other animals." It's in response to the argument that, indeed, it is a choice, and that the natural order of things is, by default, heterosexual...because it's not like there are animals in the wild engaging in homosexual relation[(s)hips]. Clearly, the base instinct is for procreation, and homosexuality is in direct opposition to that.

We now know both of those arguments to be foundationless, and in so knowing, the counter-argument seems a little ridiculous. It's really more outdated than ridiculous, though.

I think it's important to keep in mind just how quickly attitudes about homosexuality have changed...I can remember about the last 30 years, and the world is a completely different place, especially in terms of LGBTQ rights and equality. At times like this, when issues are brought to the forefront b/c the high court is hearing arguments, the full scope of arguments for & against a particular issue are revived; it's really nothing more than that.
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