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Old 05-26-2013, 04:40 AM   #401
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Degrees aren't a guarantee of anything but debt.
Wow. Broad generalization.

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Old 05-26-2013, 05:48 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by anne_josh

No, you *don't* do *all* those things because you do not care for your children all day. Sorry. WOHM does not = SAHM + work. You can't be in two places at once.

For the record, I have absolutely no judgment towards either choice a woman chooses to make. People should do what works best for their families, period. But to say that a WOHM does everything a SAHM does plus work full time is absolutely factually inaccurate.
Actually the PP is correct. We DO do all those things as a WOHP. Maybe not the same amount of TIME SAHP do, but we still do the same things.

You sound very judgmental for claiming not to be.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:16 AM   #403
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I didn't mean the dad question to be argumentative. It was more. .. if these dads are working SO much (as some stated) how do they bond. Many of the moms argue their presence is so important but I would argue both are important. I don't mean one has to stay home but if both work evenly then dad can come home and coach baseball at 4 or 5pm or whatever. I just think two people working making ok salaries can open up lives for everyone.
My husband works a lot, but he's managed to have an incredible bond with all four of our children. Imagine that.

Even if I did work, he wouldn't work less. He is an instrumentation engineer for a global company, in their research facility. Travel is necessary for his job. Before that, he was in the Marines. That obviously requires travel. So if I worked, my kids would see the same amount of him, but less of me. No thank you.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:17 AM   #404
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Re: Second Wives Club

[QUOTE=soonerfan;16624660]Do either of your circumstances allow you to do exactly what she did? It sounds like no.


But, could you listen to the intent of her message and use the gist to find small ways to start working towards a plan that would help you move into the workforce if you needed to? You could. Absolutely, you could.

There are free ways to network--one is not limited to lunching with old coworkers. There are free ways to educate yourself in your field (if you went to school) or learn marketable skills (if you did not). There is zero cost to figuring out a plan to work towards, even if the plan is all you can do right now. I'm not saying you must, just that there are ways to do so.

I've been the one at home with pennies stretched so tightly they could snap. I've worked and been in the same boat. I've also stayed at home with a six figure income, and I've worked when we've had a larger six figure income. You can always do things to change your job prospects, improve yourself or your marketability, or give yourself options. You might just have to adjust your attitude to do so.[/QUOTE]


Actually "I" can. I could do this pretty easily and especially as next year I will only have one baby home full time. So daycare for 1 vs 4 while in school is a lot more doable. Also my DH is off in the day when many classes take place.

BUT......I know of so many people that cannot. In fact I worked in a college and that was the majority of my work. You don't even know how many mothers I helped out in many ways beyond the scope of my job description who desperately wanted it to work.....but in the end it just wasn't possible. Most of these students were lower income, qualified for all kinds of grants but there were a ton of other issues that I don't think you or pp would even think about that affect being able to attend school. Some of them were even saddled with debt with not completing their program (in the medical field) and that was after grants.

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Originally Posted by z2akids View Post
My entire original post that was so offensive revolved around the fact that a great many women who make the decision with their spouse for them to not gave a marketable jobset, live with the consequence of that decision. How many posts are there in a single week just here on DS from women who become dingle mothers and struggle greatly financially. Women who had no idea what hit them. Women without the education and skills to financially provide for their children.

I don't have a problem with one parent staying at home. I loved being at hone with my kids. Part if the reason I chose the career I am in now is so that I will be home when they get home. But, in a country with close to 50% of marriages ending in divorce, it is a very large risk to stay at home with no means to financially care for your family.

Honestly......this whole thread could have been avoided if you had been more open minded in your first post. It worked for you....doesn't work for everyone. You were a bit condescending and honestly a bit mean in that post. If you riled up so many mom's with your post than maybe it's time to accept responsibility and say you were a bit close minded. As I said before......there was a much nicer way to say " I think it's good to keep your career options open for the what if" instead of insulting people and tooting your own horn.

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Originally Posted by z2akids View Post
You may not qualify for grants, but there are both subsidized and nonsubsidized federal loans out there. A great number of degrees are offered all or at least mostly online now. No need for childcafe or to come up with tuition while you are in school.

Sure. It doesn't work for everyone. But, I see this dismissal of even the possibility as causing many people to think they can't. Then people call it magical when someone does it. It wasn't magic or wealth that allowed me to start from scratch (I hadn't even taken even a basic biology course in 20 years when I started back). It was hard work.

Yes, this is good advice.

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Degrees aren't a guarantee of anything but debt.
Actually she is right. It isn't a guarantee of anything. Education is great but you have to be very careful to chose the correct degree. BIL is talking about going back to school and DH and I are rolling our eyes as we know he is the type that it will do him no good. Not exactly a go getter. They already have a ton of debt and we see this as just adding to it. I think he has a degree in "business" which IMO is so broad it can be pretty useless to many. You would be better off getting something very specific.

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Originally Posted by anne_josh View Post
Staying home is a choice? Not so much for the majority of SAHM's. There are the few, affluent women who can decide whether to go back to work or not purely based on preference. And then there are the many who do the math and see that if they go back to work their salary will cover child care costs, transportation expenses, and little else. Child care for my two kids would be about what I would make if I went back to my old job.

However, yes, women do need to think about the what-ifs and that's why I went to college, got a degree, and had a job that I could go back to if I had to. And we have good life insurance.

Yep, I know of someone so rural who literally could not go work at this moment purely because gas is so expensive.

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Originally Posted by 5PrincessMommy View Post
Actually the PP is correct. We DO do all those things as a WOHP. Maybe not the same amount of TIME SAHP do, but we still do the same things.

You sound very judgmental for claiming not to be.

But you don't. I'm not going to overly comment as I know your situation very well. You know I think you rock and are amazing. But the fact is that you do not spend those hours of the day with your younger kids.....they are taken care of by someone else. If it wasn't your DH ...if he were working....then it would be daycare. So while you are working then somebody else is changing them, feeding them, playing with them and in most sahp cases and daycare reading, educational play etc. There are those normally 6-9 hours a day that ANOTHER person is taking care of your child.



Taking care of a child on a daily basis takes a lot of time. Even just feeding them alone so many times takes time - I'm so sick of wiping down my table and cleaning up by the end of the night. I love when it's the final wipe down of the night. Making sure they have outside time, reading time, play time, changing poopy diapers. All takes time. It's not a glamorous job but somebody has got to do it. Luckily I love it.


Nobody is saying that WOHM don't work their butts off. But you don't do the "same" AND work out of the home. You don't change them 12 times a day....you might do it 4....somebody else does it the other 8 times. Doesn't mean you aren't a great parent either way.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:30 AM   #405
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Totally honest: You don't sleep. Not even joking, my insomnia is the only reason I have a chance at finishing college. If I get to bed before daylight and manage 1-2hrs I consider myself lucky. I go days when papers are due. And that's only 3/4 time on campus with one class online.

And to the online classes point, that does not work for a LOT of people. It takes immense amounts of self discipline, but on top of that some are hands on learners. I learned that last semester. I barely, and I mean within a single point and a miracle, passed my math class last semester online. I cannot learn some things without being in the room, absorbing the material, and being able to ask questions when they arise in that moment. If every class I took was online, I would flunk out. And I still would require study time and whatnot that takes as much as class time.

To be totally honest, the reason that put me over the top for going back to school was that we can live on the financial aid from semester to semester. I could do it on PELL alone and have no debt; it's a cheap school and I commute in-state. But were it not for that, I doubt I would've done it before the boys were much older. And I certainly didn't anticipate what it took to get it done with kids.

Both boys are in bed by 7 and sleep at least 12hrs. Even the youngest only gets up at the most every 4hrs now. The oldest doesn't get up at all and hasn't for a long time. They don't fight bed time or sleep, still nap in the day, and set their own schedules early on that they stick to with a passion. They are ideal and it's still hard as hell. We get up at 7am in the summer (thanks daylight). The oldest naps once around noon. The youngest naps every 2ish hours in the day. They both nap at the same time during the noon nap every day. I use that time to get things done that will take up time in the evening, or on days when I am about to pass out from exhaustion I attempt a nap as well that will fuel me for another 2-3days. I drop them at mom's at 3:30 and drive an hour and a half to class. I speed dangerously and drive like a maniac to get there on time because it's never traffic-free, and I run across campus. Class from 5-6:15. I make it out of the parking deck around 6:45. If I have 0 errands to run, I pick up my oldest around 8:15. Transfer him seamlessly on most days and go back to get my youngest at 8:30. Get him down quickly most of the time and begin housework by 8:45. Laundry, cleaning, dishes, boiling bottles, sweeping, mopping, etc. If I'm done by midnight it's been a good day. Then I do homework and minimal studying. Generally 2hrs worth per class with laundry and baby wake ups/diaper changes/bottles in between. It's now 6am. I try to doze and hope no one needs anything in the next hour. Don't ask me how I do it for finals, midterms or papers.

I'm dead 100% of the time. On days off school I catch up on errands, schoolwork and assignments, and try to get a nap in somewhere. The amount of sleep I [don't] get is unhealthy. Notice in there I didn't mention eating. I eat once a day, if that, in the middle of the night to keep my blood sugar from bottoming out. I can't afford the time to feed myself after I spend over an hour feeding the kids each time during the day, and I cannot rightly justify to myself wasting time cooking at night for only me. I will pay for living like this in a few years. I know it, and it will be hell.

And my mom watches my boys for free. I work on and off during the day from home, on commission, for extra money. And by extra, I mean yay gas money to get to the grocery store not nail appointments or lunches.

Because of all that, I really don't expect a lot of people to see "making it work" as an option. I'm killing myself and it's insane. I live on cigarettes and sugar fixes to keep going. Sometimes coffee on nights I fall asleep driving home, which is about half the time and horrifying. To be quite frank, I totally get why this isn't doable for some people. It shouldn't be doable for me because it's dangerous and I'm a damned menace to society being on the road most nights. Had I not been suffering from insomnia for over a decade and used to the baseline of awful before adding on the extras for school and kids, I would probably lose my mind. The only reason I still manage to care for my kids is purely out of autopilot for the basic stuff, and saving up what little enthusiasm I still have for waking hours of play time that invoke baby and toddler smiles. It's depressing and sad. I hate it. If it weren't for the fact that I will be done and able to be a human being again while they are still smallish (5 and 4), and we will be out of this hell and on to better futures, I would want to jump off a cliff.

So nope, I don't expect people to suck it up and do it. Plenty of "doable" situations are only doable by surpassing sacrificing convenience and running headfirst into the brick wall of dangerous and/or unhealthy. And that's (IMO) worse for a family than [maybe] keeping a door open.

Tldr; Better for the family is subjective.

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Old 05-26-2013, 06:32 AM   #406
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Re: Second Wives Club

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Originally Posted by mjg2043 View Post
Wow. Broad generalization.
How do you figure?
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:51 AM   #407
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My degrees (including some student loan debt) have paid off beyond the debt in income and promotions. I made sure of it before obtaining them. I think if you are smart about what you study, education is always a good investment.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:52 AM   #408
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Mama I think you are not understanding at all. I have already discussed with my husband what I might be able to do to improve my ability to get a job. The assumption from one poster though was that all people regardless can do something right now. No not all of us can. Not right now. Others have decided they do not need to. That is their choice. Only they can decide if it is a bad decision for them and their familiis. Really to tell us all we have to do is to volunteer and do lunch with co workers is a comment totally out of touch with the day to day reality of life for so many.
You could do something right now, if you wanted to. You could email old coworkers regularly or stop by with kids to say hi a few times a year. You could take a free class via iTunes U or one of the Ivies that have them--they have many general and specific courses for things that can help you in a job or just life (resume, writing, communication, etc). You could get a book at the library to stay updated on the latest office programs. And so many other things. Would it be hard? Yes, but it could take less time that surfing ds. I finished my last three courses for my masters degree while my husband was in law school (gone up to 12 hours a day), had a toddler at home, and a baby at home. You can always do something.

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Originally Posted by Hillargh
Just to add: Keeping in contact with people with retain employability only really matters if you had some sort of career before having kids. I doubt lunches with my ex-Publix and Walgreens coworkers would keep that minimum wage door open for my foot to get in. Nor would that support my family and pay for child care even if I did somehow get a job from that. But even beyond that, it's not as if those I worked with have hiring capabilities. Those contacts would do me no good other than telling me whose store had a position available, which is easily discerned with a phone call.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

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I just wanted to say that you should never underestimate the power of networking. Jobs are filled with networking. I guarantee that people are hired at the places you listed all the time based mostly on someone saying, "my friend used to work here and she was wonderful! I think she'd be great in our store!" Not to mention, many jobs are filled before they are ever even posted, and that does not only apply to professional level jobs.

In 2011, we moved back to Texas during one of the worst times ever to seek a job in education. There were massive cuts to the budget and there were hundreds of apps for every open position. I got one interview (and subsequent offer) because I was casually talking to a total stranger at a community event. She liked my demeanor, and told me to fill out an app for a specific school (a school that did not yet have an opening), and said she'd call the principal for me. I got another interview because my mom had a steady patient at work, and his mom worked in communications for a school district. They got to talking, and my mom mentioned I'd applied in her district. Again, even though the position was likely filled before it posted, she emailed my résumé to a contact at the school and asked if they would interview me. I went to the interview and blew them away. While they could not offer me a position due to budget, I asked the dept head if I could stay in touch and seek her advice on some teaching units because she blew me away! Six months later, she knew what positions would be opening for the next year, asked me if I was still interested (I was working in another district for the year), and I had the job without ever interviewing, even though they still had to post it and go through the process. The second job offer I got that year (and accepted) came about by pure serendipity. I emailed the principal, and mentioned we'd moved so often because of the military. Her sister always had a hard time finding jobs because her husband was also in the military, so the principal selected me as one to interview out of literally hundreds of apps, based on that. The next year, in addition to the job I ended up taking, I had two other soft offers, based solely on someone I knew well telling their principal, "she's awesome, we need her."

Networking is so incredibly powerful. I know I am phenomenal at what I do, but I never would have even gotten my foot in the door that first year back in Texas without networking. To be honest, I did not realize the importance myself until it was a tough market. My advice would be to always stay in touch with someone who knows you work hard, and when you are looking for work, don't be afraid to let everyone know!
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:52 AM   #409
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Re: Second Wives Club

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Originally Posted by Tris View Post
How do you figure?
I didn't make the comment but, for starters, not everyone leaves college with debt.

Also, while there are some degrees that do not translate well in the job market ( mine, for instance) there are any degrees that are highly desired and required in order to get a job in your field of choice. Of course, there will always be people that can't find a job, even with a highly marketable degree, but that speaks more to their personal experience and is not a general statement about post secondary education as a whole.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:54 AM   #410
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Re: Second Wives Club

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Originally Posted by mjg2043 View Post
My degrees (including some student loan debt) have paid off beyond the debt in income and promotions. I made sure of it before obtaining them. I think if you are smart about what you study, education is always a good investment.


That's how it is "supposed" to go in the ideal world. That is not how it is in everyone's world though. If it get's to the point where the president is talking about it then you know it's not just a few people here and there. There are a ton of people out there with "useless" degrees. Economy has changed so much and evolves so much that what was a "smart" idea 5 years ago is now not.
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