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Old 05-03-2006, 05:10 AM   #21
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Re: Shots

Send me to a peer-reviewed medical journal that makes the connection, please. Much as I feel for those families that have been hit by PDD, that website contains no scientifically-established proof.

Toxic levels of mercury can have more than one source. There are quite a few places in the States where ground water is poisoned by mercury, and I know of at least one in Canada (the city of Sudbury, with its extensive mining operations.) If, in fact, autism is caused by mercury poisoning - and I'm not convinced of that yet, because of the lack of good medical research that I've seen on the topic - I would expect it would have a lot more to do with environmental poisoning than the tiny amounts of preservative in vaccines.

As for the rise in the number of cases - well, PDD has only really been diagnosed consistently for about twenty years. Most of what is now diagnosed as PDD/autism wasn't even recognized as a disorder when I was a child. Increased and improved diagnosis accounts for the rise in numbers, without any corresponding rise in actual cases.

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Old 05-03-2006, 05:19 AM   #22
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Re: Shots

It looks to me, from that link, like some vaccines were produced using cells grown from fetal tissue five decades ago. No new tissue is being used. So there's no soylent green factor here; babies are not being aborted in order to provide ingredients for vaccines. It also appears that the tissues in question were used for cultures to grow live vaccines. When you have a throat swab done to test for strep throat, the swab is placed in a dish of blood products to see if the blood products grow the bacteria they're looking for. The fetal tissue was apparently used the same way as the blood culture. Long story short - the vaccines we get do not contain human biproducts, but they have been tested in human biproducts.
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:15 PM   #23
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Re: Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by camperjen
There is certainly a connection between the amount of mercury left in vaccinations (even those that are supposedly "thimerasol free") and children found with toxic levels in their systems. There is certainly a connection between mercury/heavy metal poisoning and children who show symptoms on the Autistic spectrum.

one example: www.camsvoice.com


and while I don't know much about the sweden thing, (I'm curious though so I'm going to look into it) I can't imagine that in 1997 they would offer thimerasol free shots, it was around that time that mercury was even being questioned as a danger... And then even now pediatricians and pharma companies can claim that they have a "thimerasol-free shot" they in fact have trace amounts in them, such a small amount that it doesn't have to be mentioned, even on the vax ingredients. But the amount accepted as *safe* is still unknown so why risk it? Just as the FDA leaves out certain ingredients in food because there are only trace amounts, the vaccine manufacturers do the same. Only problem is that we are talking about toxic poisons injected directly into the body, that will not have the benefit of the liver and kidneys to filter, not to mention the enzymes and digestive system to break them down to help the body process them.

and of course the whole mercury and possible connection to autism is just a small piece of the vaccine controversy. Not to mention the many other toxins used to preserve and make the vaccines. Even if all vax's were 100% thimerasol free I would still never ever allow my child to receive any shots. I much prefer to keep my child's immune system intact.
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:31 PM   #24
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Re: Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvetpage
I am not convinced that thimersol is a good idea, but I'm absolutely convinced that the diseases being vaccinated against are more of a risk than the thimersol. The reason modern western nations have such an incredibly low infant and child mortality rate can be credited to the massive vaccination programs of the last fifty years. Your unvaccinated children are much, much less likely to come in contact with these diseases than they ever were before - because the rest of us are vaccinating our children. In other words, you're benefitting from our decision to vaccinate.
no, none of this is true, I encourage you to research on your own... it may take awhile but these statements are false. The part about diseases being vaccinated against being more of a risk then thimerasol got me. How so? Who dies from measles or mumps for example??? or what about chicken pox? children?? when, where? none that I know of. In this day in age they do not. And it's not because other's are vaccinating. It's because we live in a developed country, with clean water, sanitation, access to healthcare, etc, etc, etc, There is a problem with mass immunization against childhood diseases, because children are not able to acquire natural immunity because every one esle is vaccinating against CHILDHOOD diseases that are meant to run their course and strengthen the immune system. Problems arrise because so called artificial immunity from vaccines wears off once you are an adult putting you at a higher risk for complications. Think about chickenpox, kids get over it just fine while it tends to be more serious for adults. If we would have just left nature alone we wouldn't have these problems.

Does anyone suffer lifelong effects from vaccines? Do children die because of them? YES, and YES.

Dig deeper and you will realize that vaccines are NOT responsible for wiping disease out.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:25 PM   #25
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Re: Shots

I have a friend whose child came down with chicken pox two days after being admitted to hospital for complications related to another vaccine-preventable illness. (She had an ear infection which was not caught in good time, though she had visited doctors for it, and by the time they realized what was going on, the infection had gotten into her skull.) She spent six weeks in Toronto Sick Kids' Hospital, in isolation because of the risk of chicken pox to the other kids in that hospital, received several weeks of IV antibiotics after that, and was on oral antibiotics for a total of six months. Twenty years ago, she would almost certainly have died. As it was, the two vaccines she hadn't gotten (the only two she hadn't gotten) turned out to be the ones that threatened her life. Chicken pox on its own is rarely life-threatening for kids, unless they happen to have something else that makes the complication especially dangerous. The same is true of mumps, measles, and several others.

Then there's the issue of population infection. You're right that naturally developed immunity is usually better and more effective for the child, barring a situation like the one I described above. The problem is that anyone who hasn't had the disease, or hasn't had it for decades, or has a compromised immune system, is at increased risk of developing it again, or of developing a spinoff disease from the same virus. Ever seen someone suffering from a chronic case of shingles? I have. It was passed to that person by their grandchild, whose chicken pox were completely uncomplicated. It left the elderly person in itchy agony for months and contributed to the decline that led to her death.

Then there's the issue of measles. Pregnant women who have not been vaccinated are putting their babies at risk if they come in contact with the disease. If they have school-age children who are not vaccinated, they've just multiplied their risk of exposure by the number of children they have. Measles in utero causes brain damage that is not correctable. Aside from saving my daughter the high fever and annoyance of the rash, I'd rather protect the unborn children of the women around me from accidental exposure through my child.

A vaccination is not just about the child in question. It's about a societal level of protection. Back in 1929, a bunch of my grandmother's cousins went to a Sunday School picnic. She didn't go - her baby sister was sick and she was needed at home. Of the forty-odd kids who went to that picnic, 30 were dead three weeks later, including most of her cousins, of diphtheria - a bacteria spread through stagnant water. Now, antibiotics would take a bite out of that number today - but the most dangerous time for diphtheria is in the first twenty-four hours, so many children would be in dire straits before their parents could get them to a doctor. Now consider polio. Fifty years ago, parents were lining up around the block to get an unproven, live vaccine for their children, knowing very well that the vaccine might kill them - and also knowing that contracting polio was a much bigger threat, because they had seen it and its effects. Polio has not been eradicated yet - it could come to North America at any time via an unvaccinated third-world immigrant, as tuberculosis has been doing over the last fifteen years. We have an illusion of safety due to the rarity of these diseases in our own lives, but it is an illusion. The smaller the world becomes, the more likely it is that one of these diseases will return to decimate society, and those who are unvaccinated will have contributed to spreading an epidemic that might otherwise have been contained.

I have already dug deeper. I've talked to doctors, to a friend of mine who is a microbiologist, I've read medical journals, I've read up on everything I can. Vaccines are the reason we as a society expect our children to get to adulthood. That has never been true before the last two generations, and it's still not true in many parts of the world. Good medical care in other areas is partially responsible as well - but the single biggest factor is mass vaccinations. As a responsible parent and citizen, I've decided that what is best for my children, my family, and my community, is to be protected to the furthest extent that medical science can provide.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:41 PM   #26
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Re: Shots

I read that 1997 was the year that mercury levels in shots were increased, along with the cases of autism. And as for the mercury in the water, maybe that is the cause of the non-vaxed autistic cases.

Yeah that, on the unnatural invasion injected straight into the bloodstream instead of through the natural disesase fighting organs. What a shock to the body shots are.

Improved sanitation (like easy access to hot water and antibacterial soap) get the credit for less risks in diseases as well as childbirth IMO. I've seen so much corruption and mistakes in modern medicine, it seems like it's more intended to make money than actually heal people.

My ds had whooping cough, but he survived and is fine now, (thank goodness). He healed naturally with herbal and homeopathic remedies. I didn't take him to a docter, and never regretted not vaxing. IMO, the risks involved with shots are worse than the risks of the diseases they are supposedly giving immunity for. After knowing that a cat was microchipped with a shot, I don't trust 'em one bit.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:44 PM   #27
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Re: Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvetpage

I have already dug deeper. I've talked to doctors, to a friend of mine who is a microbiologist, I've read medical journals, I've read up on everything I can. Vaccines are the reason we as a society expect our children to get to adulthood. That has never been true before the last two generations, and it's still not true in many parts of the world. Good medical care in other areas is partially responsible as well - but the single biggest factor is mass vaccinations. As a responsible parent and citizen, I've decided that what is best for my children, my family, and my community, is to be protected to the furthest extent that medical science can provide.
I have not weighed in on this discussion b/c I've don't have an opinion either way on vaxing or not. I think the point of this thread was to ask for help about a delayed schedule, etc. not to debate, although digression is always interesting and welcome.
I think that your points are taken here, but you are preaching to people who have their minds made up. I also think that your last sentence saying that you are a responsible parent and citizen assumes that those who don't assume that medical science is the know all end all aren't responsible.
Just asking those in the medical profession about something the medical profession advocates and endorses is somewhat irresponsible imo. I think that as drummers wife suggested you should dig deeper, as in beyond what the medical profession has to say... dig FURTHER than that.
For the record, I haven't made my mind up about vax's for my little guy one way or the other, but I definitely don't think that vaccines are the reason our society expects us to get from childhood to adulthood. Actually that statement was so far fetched that I just pretty much wrote off anything that you had said before that. Not a personal attack on you at all, just wanted to let you know my response as a person who is not for or against vaxing either way.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:46 PM   #28
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Re: Shots

I totally support your having reached the conclusion that for you, vaccination is the way to go. I would never try to convince you otherwise.

However, I take exception to the wording of the following:

Quote:
As a responsible parent and citizen, I've decided that what is best for my children, my family, and my community, is to be protected to the furthest extent that medical science can provide.
Your wording would seem to imply that those who don't vaccinate are irresponsible - and that's just not true. *Most* people who do not vaccinate are very responsible parents - there are bad apples among both camps, I'm sure.

I also don't feel that my community has any bearing on my choices WRT my child's health and well-being. Isabel isn't here to bolster herd immunity, she's here to live her life and make her own mark on society however she sees fit.

Quote:
Then there's the issue of measles. Pregnant women who have not been vaccinated are putting their babies at risk if they come in contact with the disease. If they have school-age children who are not vaccinated, they've just multiplied their risk of exposure by the number of children they have. Measles in utero causes brain damage that is not correctable. Aside from saving my daughter the high fever and annoyance of the rash, I'd rather protect the unborn children of the women around me from accidental exposure through my child.
I think this example does a great job of showing how flawed our vaccination program really is - instead of vaccinating women when they reach child-bearing age, we vaccinate children to whom measles poses little threat. I don't believe in putting my child at risk for vaccine reactions (which I'm sure you'll grant are real threats and potentially very serious, even if you won't concede ground on autism) to protect a population whose own immunity has worn off. Since measles poses a risk to the fetus, it should be a woman's responsibility to have a measles titer pulled and, if she's concerned, get vaccinated before getting pregnant or TTC.

Just my
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:48 PM   #29
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Re: Shots

All I'll add is that as mumps is spreading in our state... 75% of those contracting the confirmed cases were never vaxed or were not vaxed at the proper times.
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:23 PM   #30
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Re: Shots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvetpage
I have already dug deeper. I've talked to doctors, to a friend of mine who is a microbiologist, I've read medical journals, I've read up on everything I can. Vaccines are the reason we as a society expect our children to get to adulthood. That has never been true before the last two generations, and it's still not true in many parts of the world. Good medical care in other areas is partially responsible as well - but the single biggest factor is mass vaccinations. As a responsible parent and citizen, I've decided that what is best for my children, my family, and my community, is to be protected to the furthest extent that medical science can provide.

I really want to respond to a lot of what you posted, but I am nursing a wiggly child and cannot gather my thoughts at the moment but what I can tell you about the above quoted statement is that I know for a fact that Doctors have less than a 3 hr lecture on vaccines and childhood diseases in med school. It is all hand-picked and very one-sided information. Most do not even think of questioning what they are told and none of them have any time to do any further research on the issue while still in school. Then once they go into practice they are bombared daily with info from drug reps... so even if they consider thinking differently they are not given a chance. They also receive a percentage of all drugs prescribed including vaccines. So I guess what I'm saying is that I personally wouldn't hold much value to what a Dr has to say on vaccines, much less the rest of the mainstream medical community. I mean have you ever heard of LPN's injecting sick children with shots when it's pretty known that if you are going to vax wait until their immune system is at it's strongest. Either they are uninformed or do not care.

And your statement about mass immunization being responsible for children making it to adulthood is so far from truth, really do you think that is the only thing that has happened in the last two generations?!?

And I respect your decision to vaccinate, if that is what you are 100% comfortable with. But I personally feel like those who do not are very much responsible parents and citizens and that has nothing to do with the rest of society.
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