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Old 09-12-2006, 02:09 PM   #1
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2 Vax Questions--please help!

So, after putting the ped off on starting DD's vaxes, her 6m appt. arrived yesterday. I still wasn't finished reading my books and wasn't ready to start yet. Read all this stuff below and LMK WDYT, as well as any other info. you can provide:
-I had decided that we would give HiB now because it seems to be a deadly disease that affects babies her age-2y. I just haven't finished reading about the side effects of the vax. Any insight?
-I also decided the only other vax we'd do now was the pertussis. However, the ped. says it's not available as pertussis only, but has to be the whole DTaP. He says neither the T nor the P can work w/o some elements of the D (something about binding proteins w/ the diptheria...I couldn't keep up in my notes.) This true? I really have to give the whole shebang to get the whooping cough vax?
-He agreed that those were the 2 vaxxes he'd feel "nervous" about us skipping (I don't care about what makes him nervous, FYI--I'm basing this on my reading), but also suggested the Pneumococcal. The WHAT?!?! Now, I know what it is--I had to be vaxed for a version of it after having my spleen removed (I didn't know it at the time and now will just watch for fevers instead). He didn't seem dead-set on this one being necessary and said it's only been in the last 5 yrs. that it's been a part of the reg. routine. There's nothing about this even mentioned in the books I've read. Anyone know enough about it to give me the basics on it? What is it? How's it made? Any ingredients in it that raise eyebrows? Side effects of it? Why does DD need it? What'll happen if she gets the virus/is it deadly?
-What can I do to prep DD for her shots? The nurse suggested Tylenol, but she's never had anything foreign in her body thus far--seems Tylenol isn't in line w/ trying to be as natural as possible. What did you do?
-Can I BF her while she gets her shots? (I know I CAN, but I mean, do you think this'll help?)
-What should I look out for after she has her DTaP and HiB?
-The ped thought it was important that she get at least 2 rounds of the above before winter came, when the virus' are most prevalent. That means I have to come back next week to do them, then 2m thereafter. Sound about right to you??

I put him off for another week so I could gather as much info. as possible so I don't do anything I'm not comfortable with. I am DREADING this appt. Any info/advice you can offer would be great. I'm all for doing what I need to prevent DD from things where the risk outweighs the risks of the vax...but no more. TIA

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Old 09-12-2006, 02:27 PM   #2
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

we vax so im not too much info but i do give tyleon 30 minutes before the appointment, this mainly is to help with the sirenss they'll feel afterwards and to try and prevent fever.
my son got both the MMR and pnemocochal on the same arm and ended up with a reaction and rash, they dont know which caused it so watch for a raised bump thats red and hard feeling.

when we'd go for danaes vax's i'd give her tylenol, shed get the vax and immediatly after i'd nurse her, this helped her and me cause i comforted her with my milk and she was always just fine.

the thing that sucks for us now is that since she's been getting chemo, ALL her vax's need to be regiven!
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:48 PM   #3
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

I personally don't vax at all. I just have a quick question for you. Do you send Ramie to daycare? If not being an only child she is highly unlikely to get HIB. It is almost exclusively found in children in large daycare settings. And it really isn't dangerous past about 15 months (not 2yrs). Tharen was never vaxed against it, and I'm not worried, even though he has an older brother.

Lots of people worry about pertussis especially in small babies. But again unless she is in daycare or has an older sibling to bring it home to her she is unlikely to get it. ANd that particular vax is one of the highest for reactions (read a shot in the dark some time, that vax killed and permanently injured many children) and has one of the lowest efficacy rates. Being over 6 months and breastfed she is in a better position to fight it off if she did get it, and summer is it's peek time, and we are heading into fall. Just some things to consider. You should be able to get Pertusis without the others, it will just be hard to find. I have never heard what your Pedi was saying about it needing the other parts, it has just been patented that way and so that is how most people get it. Just like MMR, they are all together and hard to find separately.

Good luck with what ever decision you make. I think it is great that you are taking the time to study. We all have diseases that scare us, we just have to do our best to decide why we are afraid, and if more info is out there. I feel far more confident now that I have educated myself about the diseases that we vax against.
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Old 09-12-2006, 04:51 PM   #4
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

We were just at the ped yesterday and I posted a vax questions above. We got some handouts about vaccines and I have them sitting here by the computer so I will type out some of the info you asked for.

The bacteria that the Pneumococcal prevents is the leading cause of bacterial meningitis in the U.S. Each year before the vaccine, it caused over 700 cases of meningitis, 13,000 blood infections, and 5 million ear infections. Children under 2 are at the highest risk. Infections are hard to treat because the bacteria have become resistant to some of the drugs that were used to treat them so prevention is best.

This is a summary of the handout from the ped's office. I don't have the handout for the others that you mentioned.

I don't do anything to prep dd for the shots. She cries for a minute and then forgets about it. If she acts like the shot sites are hurting later, I give her tylenol, but not before that. She is usually a little sleepy the next day.

Hope that helps!
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:23 PM   #5
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

I totally understand your frustration. I lived it. In the end I decided we should follow the CDC recc's, but insisted that everything they gave my DD be thimerosal-free. There is a list on the FDC website that shows thimerosol concentrations. www.fda.gov/cber/thimerosal.htm. Some have more than others, and some brands of them are lower than others. Some of the nurses glared at me when I asked what brand but they went and looked (in the end I had to trust them).

My DD never had any bad reactions, not even fussiness.

GL, mama. In my experience all parenting is a leap of faith.

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Old 09-12-2006, 05:23 PM   #6
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

Forgot to add that nursing cures all ills for frustrated babes.
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Old 09-14-2006, 01:16 PM   #7
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

My Natural Mama's group has a fill folder full of vax info. Here's some bits and pieces you might be interested in:

Quote:
What is pertussis?
Pertussis is an illness that is most severe among infants. B. pertussis bacteria attach themselves to cilia, the tiny hairs lining the respiratory tract. The bacteria release toxins that damage cilia and cause inflammation. Because cilia are responsible for helping clear mucus from the airway, people with pertussis tend to develop a cough as a means of compensating for difficulty clearing mucus.

It is not uncommon for older children and adults to have pertussis, but their symptoms are often so mild that it appears as no more than a common cold or mild bronchitis. Infants are most at risk of complications such as pneumonia due to their tiny airways and lack of immune experience. During severe coughing attacks, babies may turn blue or vomit.
The most severe phase of the illness usually lasts one to six weeks but has been known to persist for 10 weeks. Antibiotics may lessen the severity of the illness if begun early on. Otherwise, treatment focuses on simple supportive measures.

The pertussis vaccine protects for only a few years, at most. As vaccination coverage has increased over the past 20 years, so has the number of reported cases of pertussis. It is unclear at this time whether this is reflective of an actual increase in disease incidence or whether more reports are being made, as physicians are realizing pertussis frequently occurs even in vaccinated communities and have begun actively looking for it in ill patients.

The “meningitis” and the “ear infection” vaccines

Vaccines for diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis have been available since the 1950s, Prevnar and Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b) are newcomers to the vaccine scene. Hib was first added to the recommended vaccination schedule in 1991 and Prevnar was added in 2000.

Prevnar has received much attention as being “the ear infection vaccine.” Yet Wyeth, the vaccine’s manufacturer, states that protection against ear infections “is expected to be low” and that children who have received the vaccine have an increased risk of developing ear infections caused by other bacteria. Your decision to use this vaccine should be based solely on their effect on invasive disease such as meningitis and septicemia (blood infection).
Your physician may be eager to promote Prevnar and Hib vaccines because of their ability to prevent meningitis in some children, but it’s important to realize that many different types of organisms cause meningitis. The bacteria in these vaccines represent only a very small portion of those organisms, and vaccinated children can still get meningitis.

In fact, according to vaccine manufacturers and the Centers for Disease Control, if Prevnar and Hib are administered to a child under six weeks of age, the baby could develop “immune tolerance.” Because newborn immune systems are just learning to function, early vaccination with these vaccines makes babies unable to respond to these germs -- and so they are actually more susceptible to infection. And since scientists don’t thoroughly understand how newborn immune systems work, some parents question whether it is actually possible for immune tolerance to occur in some older babies as well.

The incidence of invasive diseases peaks between the ages of six and 18 months. Your child may have an increased risk of developing invasive Hib or pneumococcal disease if she:

is not breastfed
attends group child care
has older siblings
is immune-compromised or has a chronic disease
has taken antibiotics
has had at least one ear infection in the past three months

A peculiarity has been noted among physicians who administer the Prevnar and Hib vaccines. Dr. Jeanne Santoli of the CDC’s National Immunization Program has expressed concern over a recent Harvard study, which found that these doctors are less likely to perform diagnostic testing such as blood work and urine screening when children present with symptoms of potential bacterial illness. Many cases of bacterial illness go undetected because the doctors just aren’t looking. This also means that children with urinary tract infections are less likely to receive appropriate medical care.

What’s in these vaccines?

Prevnar and Hib vaccines are made in a similar way. The outer coatings of these bacteria are polysaccharides (sugar molecules linked together). The immature immune systems of babies are not able to recognize those outer coatings unless they are attached to a protein, so the vaccines are made by taking pieces of the bacterial coatings and attaching (conjugating) them to a protein from another bacteria. Prevnar uses diphtheria protein and Hib vaccines use either tetanus, diphtheria or meningococcal protein.

Most of these vaccines contain aluminum adjuvants. An adjuvant is added to some vaccines to increase and prolong the immune response; without the adjuvant, the vaccine would not work. Adverse reactions to these adjuvants include sterile abscesses, allergies and increased swelling, redness, tenderness and nodule formation at the vaccination site. “Aluminum also is a neurotoxin,” says Dr. Philip Rudnick, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry at West Chester University of Pennsylvania. “This has been known for over 100 years.” A neurotoxin is a substance that damages the tissues of the nervous system.

The pertussis vaccine component has been linked with the development of neurologic disorders, as well. Due to the high number of adverse reactions to this vaccine, the whole-cell pertussis component has been replaced in recent years by an acellular version that produces fewer reactions. Pertussis-containing vaccines are never administered to children over seven years of age, due to an increased risk of such reactions.

Contrary to what has been frequently reported in the media, some of these vaccines still contain thimerosal (a mercury-containing preservative). There has been much controversy in recent years as to whether thimerosal has the potential to cause regressive autism. In any case, mercury is a toxic substance that should be avoided. U.S. Representatives Dave Weldon, M.D., (R-FL) and Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) have recently introduced legislation to eliminate mercury from vaccines.

Quality control issues?

The United States has recently experienced shortages of Prevnar. News coverage has since reported that the vaccine’s manufacturer has fired a manager at the manufacturing plant for allegedly raising concerns about quality control and the potential for vaccine contamination or failure. The manufacturer has denied any safety problems, but the possibility is one that may, quite understandably, weigh heavily on your mind.
Ingredients for HiB, Pertussus, Pneu (if you want a comprehensive list for other vax's including MMR, flu, Hep, etc, let me know via PM - also if you want to know what these chemicals are, I have that listing too):

Acel-Immune
DTaP
Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine
Adsorbed
Lederle Laboratories
1-800-934-5556
produced using formaldehyde, thimerosal, aluminum hydroxide,
aluminum phosphate, polysorbate 80, gelatin

Act HIB
Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (Hib) Tetanus Toxoid Conjugate
Connaught Laboratories
1-800-822-2463
produced using ammonium sulfate, formalin, sucrose, thimerosal
medium: semisynthetic

DPT
Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed
SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals
1-800-366-8900 ext. 5231
produced using aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde, ammonium
sulfate, washed sheep red blood cells, glycerol, sodium chloride,
thimerosal medium: porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein

HibTiter
Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (Hib)
Lederle Laboratories
1-800-934-5556
produced using polyribosylribitol, ammonium sulfate, thimerosal
medium: chemically defined, yeast based

Menomune
Meningococcal Polysaccharide Vaccine
Connaught Laboratories
1-800-822-2463
produced using thimerosal, lactose medium: freeze dried
polysaccharride antigens from Neisseria Meningitidis

Pneumovax
Pneumococcal Vaccine Polyvalent
Merck & Co., Inc.
1-800-672-6372
produced using phenol and capsular polysaccharides from the 23
most prevalent pneumococcal types
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Old 09-14-2006, 01:39 PM   #8
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

That is so scarey!
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Old 09-14-2006, 01:50 PM   #9
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

You should see the rest of the list.

BTW, in case you didn't know, thimerosal is 50% mercury by weight. The flu vax has the highest amount - 25 mg per dose (that's 25 ug of mercury, 50 ug of thimerosal). I would never, ever, in a million years give that to a small child, pregnant nor nursing woman since mercury can pass through the placenta and through breastmilk. The only thing my birth center ever did that I look back on in disgust is give me a flu vax at my 6 week post appt, but I'm sure they had no idea what the ingredients are.
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Old 09-14-2006, 01:58 PM   #10
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Re: 2 Vax Questions--please help!

EEP! I forgot to put info about the pneu vax! PPV is also known as Prevnar - you've probably heard of that. Here we go, straight from the CDC website, emphasis mine:

Quote:
The pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine (PPV)
protects against 23 types of pneumococcal bacteria.
Most healthy adults who get the vaccine develop
protection to most or all of these types within 2 to
3 weeks of getting the shot
. Very old people,
children under 2 years of age, and people with some
long-term illnesses might not respond as well or at all.
Quote:
Who should get PPV?

• All adults 65 years of age or older.

• Anyone over 2 years of age who has a long-term health
problem such as:
- heart disease
- lung disease
- sickle cell disease
- diabetes
- alcoholism
- cirrhosis
- leaks of cerebrospinal fluid

• Anyone over 2 years of age who has a disease or
condition that lowers the body's resistance to infection,
such as:
- lymphoma, leukemia
- Hodgkin's disease
- kidney failure
- nephrotic syndrome
- damaged spleen, or no spleen
- organ transplant
- multiple myeloma
- HIV infection or AIDS

• Anyone over 2 years of age who is taking any drug or
treatment that lowers the body's resistance to infection,
such as:
- long-term steroids
- radiation therapy
- certain cancer drugs

• Alaskan Natives and certain Native American populations.
NOTE! This does NOT recomend the vax for ANYONE UNDER 2!!! Yet Prevnar is given at 2, 4, 6, and 12 mo appts normally??? :scratch:

For the full article, see here:

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/VIS/vis-ppv.txt
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Last edited by rpg_mommy; 09-14-2006 at 02:03 PM.
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