UPDATE: Results: chemistry research to solve stinkies / rash.

[betty14]

Update on Aug. 10/08 at bottom of page.


This thread may be for you if you battle ammonia and/or rash. It's long, so if you don't have these problems, go have fun with your LO instead!
Rather that just keep trying different things, I've decided to use my science background (who would have thought it would come in this handy) and be scientific and methodical about it. So I'm keeping a wash and results journal, and have done some research.

If you have anything to add that works for you, please post your info!

Here's what I've found:


ABOUT AMMONIA:

Although urine iteslf is acidic to neutral (pH of 4.5 to 7 depending what you've been eating), it's breakdown product ammonia is quite strongly basic/caustic at a pH of 11.6. Ammonia burns the skin of poor babies bottoms.

It's normal to get ammonia smell OVER TIME as the diapers sit waiting to be washed. But what if your inserts/dipes smell RIGHT AFTER being peed into? That suggests that ammonia is still in your diapers, even if they smell OK after washing and drying. (how much is due to insufficient cleaning (not getting the ammonia out) vs. insufficiant rinsing (residue and bacteria) is a question mark).

Now detergents themselves are caustic (a major ingredient is washing soda, a base). But they work best to clean your clothes in a pH NEUTRAL (7)environment, not the high-pH environment that is a stinky diaper. So to clean better, you should bring the pH of the diapers down to neutral!

Enter - Vinegar! Putting vinegar into the pre-wash or into the main wash or both should work much better than putting it into the rinse (too late then). Vinegar is very good at bringing the high ammonia pH back down to neutral so that the detergent can do it's job.


ABOUT GERMS?

Well, the sun's rays can do a great job. If that has not worked, people will often resort to bleach.

Regarding bleach - I have not done the following method, but I've been reading some micobiology journal articles after asking another mama on this site about it - regular bleach (which has a high pH) is so-so at disinfecting, but if you have acidified bleach, the germ killing power is GREATLY increased (like up to 200X). This is accomplished by vinegar plus bleach. However, one must NEVER NEVER mix straight bleach with vinegar - toxic fumes etc. The solution I read was 2 oz. bleach diluted with one gallon water, then add 2 oz. vinegar. This solution is evidently used in microbiology labs to disinfect hard and soft surfaces. I suppose one could also do a prewash with vinegar, followed by a hot wash with their detergent plus a bit of bleach (I know that some people do this, having read many posts on washing). Since all the vinegar would not totally be rinsed yet after the prewash, the remaining vinegar would acidify the bleach and increase the disinfecting properties. Could this be one reason that some people report success using bleach and others not?

ABOUT RESIDUE:

I have a house water softener, but have found that adding softener in the form of RLR or Calgon etc. can be used to strip residues. So I washed my "clean" diapers with Calgon only, and got a mountain of suds - this is after seeing NO SUDS with just plain water rinsing! So even if you have soft water, the addition of softener to a diaper load may greatly improve rinsing.

That's what I've found out! Baby is sleeping now in a diaper washed 2 days ago with a certain method that I've recorded in my book... I'll note at the end of the day how his bottom's doing, and decide what other tweaking I might need to do.


ABOUT WASHERS:

I wish I had a top loader!

Cheers!




UPDATE:

Enzymes:

So I bought a product that people rave about. Biokleen Bac-Out (loving it!)

I thought I'd learn a bit about enzymes, since this ingredient is one of the five no-no igredients for cloth diapers, along with brighteners, softeners, dyes and fragrance.

Here's a review (various sources, web and scientific journal):

Enzymes are a special type of protein produced by living organisms. Our digestive tracts, for example, contain many enzymes to break down the food we eat.

Enzymes are "biological catalysts". When they are present, certain reactions occur, but they themselves are not used up in the process.
Some types of enzymes used in laundry care are:
- proteases, which break down proteins (ex. blood stain)
- amylases, which break down starches (ex. ice cream spill, gravy stain)
- lipases, which braek down fats (diaper cream, olive oil spilled on your blouse)
- cellulases, which break down things like dust and mud

Enzymes are manufactured in a factory via various bacteria being cultured, and then added to deterents.

They are highly functional for cleaning and are biodegradable. They are very effective at low temperatures (as in cold water washing). You don't need a lot, because after an enzyme has worked on one stain, it moves on to the next (they are not used up in the process - although they will eventually become inert and biodegrade).

Some people feel they are sensitive to enzymes, or that their baby got a rash from the enzymes (left on the fabric, which then touched baby's bottom, and then started to act on their tender skin).

I read two reseach studies that concluded that use of an enzyme containing detergent does not cause skin rash - rather another ingredient is at fault. Now I don't want to start a debate here - this info may or may not be correct, and one would discontinue using any detergent that irritated LO's skin anyway.

Now on to my
People who have washing problems with the "approved" detergents may actually benefit from trying a detergent that contains enzymes, since these proteins are so effective. To avoid the possible pitfall of enzyme damage to the skin, it would make sense to rinse very well. Perhaps use some enzyme-containing detergent in the cold pre-wash (since enzymes are effective even in cold water). Then follow with a hot wash in the non-enzyme detergent, then a second hot wash with nothing.
The idea is to ensure that all those enzymes get washed out!

I had no more rash issues with my routine, BUT the diapers smelled sort of poopy. I was always checking to see if DS had a poop, and he didn't! I just bought the BAC-OUT yesterday, and soaked all my inserts several hours, and sprayed all the pockets before washing with my Nature Clean. Result: no poopy smell! I will be using this enzyme containing all natural product from now on!

[zukeypur]

Hmmm. I didn't think about the ammonia staying in the dipes. I am a firm believer in RLR though. I also use Calgon in the wash cycle, and haven't had to strip in several months now. Maybe it's time for a good strip

[Little Bear Momma]

Very interesting! And much, I've proven here as well.

[betty14]

I just thought I'd post the results of my *new* wash routine

NO RASH today at all!!!

Here's what I did in my FL HE machine, all at whatever settings that gave the highest water level possible:

cold rinse with vinegar (13m)
warm/warm wash with 1 TBSP Nature Clean (40 min)
Hot/cold wash with 1 TBSP Nature Clean plus a squirt of Dawn (55m)
Hot/cold speedwash (30m)
Rinse cycle with highest spin (18m)
Total time: 2 hr 40 min

[zukeypur]

Wow, that sounds complicated but I'm glad it worked for you. We do a quick wash with a small bit of Country Save and 1 TBSP oxyclean, followed by a sanitary wash with 3/4 up to the first line of Country Save, 1 TBSP oxyclean, 1/2 capful of Calgon, and 1/2 capful Ecover fabric softener. I was having to strip every 1 1/2 to 2 months in my top loader, but I've only stripped once in my FLer (I think in March or April).

[mykidsteacher]

Interesting. But why does it seem that vinegar tends to not work as well in hard water? And I tried vinegar a week or so ago and my dd ended up with a burn type rash after 2 diapers. Does that make sense?

Our water has a ph of about 8.4 or so (based on the pool test strips).

Other than vinegar, what else could bring the ph down?

Taking phospates out of detergents really didn't do us any favors as far as getting clean diapers.

[betty14]

Originally Posted by mykidsteacher Interesting. But why does it seem that vinegar tends to not work as well in hard water? And I tried vinegar a week or so ago and my dd ended up with a burn type rash after 2 diapers. Does that make sense? Our water has a ph of about 8.4 or so (based on the pool test strips). Other than vinegar, what else could bring the ph down? Taking phospates out of detergents really didn't do us any favors as far as getting clean diapers.

Since your water is hard, you could use some Calgon or another softener, then check again with your pool test trips. I'd like to know how that went!

Also, professional diaper services use something called a "sour" to bring the pH to a good level again, near the end of their wash routine. This is outlined on bearbottoms.com (or is it .ca)? Anyway, I am trying to emulate what they do, because their diapers HAVE to be perfect, or they'd soon lose all their customers.

[mama z]

Vinegar didn;t work here either. Caused ammonia plus vinegar smell when peed on.
Now...I have a FL (hate it) and hard water. I called the water company to find out what exactly is in it - turns out it's chlorine and ammonia. The ammonia creates something called chloramines which is supposed to kill bacteria in the water system.

My diapers always smell clean out of the washer but have stains so I wonder if they really aren't getting all that clean but don't smell horrendous because ds only poops sweet smelling nursies

thanks for starting this thread, betty14! it's interesting!
I have a question for you - was the whole house water softener worth it? I mean, you still have to buy Calgon, right?!

[SullivanLane]

I find this an interesting topic. We didn't start to get ammonia smells until we changed detergents from Ecover to Wintree. I wish I had kept using Ecover but Amazon.com didn't have it anymore.

Our wash procedure:

- cold pre-wash and rinse with a couple of tablespoons of Oxyclean Free
- hot wash with Wintree detergent and warm rinse
- extra cold rinse if I am not in a hurry :-p
- we live in an area that is known for extremely hard water

I used to use vinegar in the final rinse, but when I'd go to add it, the laundry still smelled gross.

I tried vinegar in the pre-rinse and it worked very well! My second load is now in its final rinse, I will let you all know the outcome soon.

[mykidsteacher]

Originally Posted by betty14 Since your water is hard, you could use some Calgon or another softener, then check again with your pool test trips. I'd like to know how that went! Also, professional diaper services use something called a "sour" to bring the pH to a good level again, near the end of their wash routine. This is outlined on bearbottoms.com (or is it .ca)? Anyway, I am trying to emulate what they do, because their diapers HAVE to be perfect, or they'd soon lose all their customers.

It's definitely .ca!

Wonder what the 'sour' is? Man, that's a lot of washing they go through.

I think I may be on to something that's working for us. It's actually fairly simple, but we are smell and rash free for the first time in a long time. It didn't happen the first wash, but has gradually gotten better, and now after 4 washes or so, I'm pretty pleased.

After a stripping routine of Dawn to clean the diapers and RLR to strip, I'm using Dawn, 1/4 cup Calgon and scoop of oxy in the hot wash cycle (do a cold rinse first to get out the pee and poop). This cycle has a cold rinse. Then I do a warm rinse and check for bubbles. Lately that's been all I need, but at first I had to do a couple of extra rinses.

She doesn't smell like an outhouse in the morning anymore! And except for a little redness from 4 loose poops today, her bottom is in great shape.

So, as long as it keeps working, I'm not changing a thing!