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Old 03-23-2009, 08:39 PM   #211
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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I didn't say anything about malpractice, nor did I diagnose anyone. I said it is likely it was unnecessary. If the lifetime chance of needing to be circumcised is much less than .1%, then it is a simple mathematical statement to say that it is very likely it was unnecessary. We have all heard of someone who "had" to be circumcised, but have any of us ever heard of someone with penile cancer, gangrene, frostbite or balanitis obliterans?

In America, circumcision was very common in the 20th century. Most doctors never learned proper care of the intact penis. In countries that never practiced routine infant circumcision, an adult needing circumcision is so rare that it is shocking. American penises are no more unhealthy than foreign penises. It is that we have learned to devalue the foreskin and remove it for any reason. That is why most men who "needed" to be circumcised likely did not need to be circumcised.

Anyway, you could remove that sentence from my post and the rest of it could still stand. Even if her husband's really did have one of those rare conditions, it doesn't mean her sons will have it and need to be circumcised.
You really didn't answer my question though. What are your certifications? You said the PP's dh's circ was done unnecessarily, which is grounds for a malpractice suit. If a dr did ANY surgery (let alone a genital surgery) without cause or reason, it would be grounds for a lawsuit. With the liability issues dr's have these days I just can't imagine someone circ'ing a grown man for just "any" reason. That's a pretty big deal to men and the general anesthesia alone is dangerous. I'm not saying dr's don't do things without true reason across the WORLD, not just the US, but to tell someone it was done for no reason rather than just speculate based on your experiences or information is just not nice. Can you imagine the conversation? "Someone on the cloth diaper board said you had your circumsision done unnecessarily..." My dh would be !
But really, I am curious where you've come across all this info? Online? Books? Pediatricians?

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Old 03-24-2009, 06:48 AM   #212
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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I'll repost it on my facebook and send you the link to my facebook. I want to retain credit for it. Thanks for asking!
I would love the link for this for my facebook also....thanks!
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Old 03-24-2009, 07:38 AM   #213
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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You really didn't answer my question though. What are your certifications? You said the PP's dh's circ was done unnecessarily, which is grounds for a malpractice suit. If a dr did ANY surgery (let alone a genital surgery) without cause or reason, it would be grounds for a lawsuit. With the liability issues dr's have these days I just can't imagine someone circ'ing a grown man for just "any" reason. That's a pretty big deal to men and the general anesthesia alone is dangerous. I'm not saying dr's don't do things without true reason across the WORLD, not just the US, but to tell someone it was done for no reason rather than just speculate based on your experiences or information is just not nice. Can you imagine the conversation? "Someone on the cloth diaper board said you had your circumsision done unnecessarily..." My dh would be !
But really, I am curious where you've come across all this info? Online? Books? Pediatricians?
I don't understand what is "not nice." There are a lot of unnecessary surgeries performed every day. Like c-sections - the WHO says that the c-section rate should be between 5 and 10%, yet in this country, it is over 30%. So do we have more deficient pelvises in America, or are some c-sections done unnecessarily b/c of the way doctors are educated, procedures are reimbursed, and people are socialized? I'm betting it is the second group of factors, not that we have a nation of bad uteri. So if someone had a c-section, and later found out (from books, internet, friends, whatever) that her c-section was likely unnecessary, would the person who clued her in be "not nice"?

Also, you misquoted me again. I did not say that for sure, I know beyond a doubt, he definitely was circumcised unnecessarily. I said it was very likely, given that conditions that require circumcision are so rare. And then I said that even if it was totally and completely necessary, it still does not mean his sons had to be circumcised.

My qualifications... just a ton of reading and research, on top of the standard college and some grad school education. I especially like medical journal articles. No, I am not a doctor. Does that mean I cannot read and study? My livelihood does not depend on what I think or feel about circumcision. A urologist's does. He makes money every time he diagnoses a problem that "requires" circumcision. A pediatrician or OB who does circumcisions makes $300 for 5 minutes' work. Who is more likely to be biased?

Speaking of bias, I have two intact sons. If I was wrong about circumcision, my decision can be changed, by my sons. I feel strongly that it is my sons' decision to make. The people who respond vociferously in this thread generally have circumcised sons. I imagine the reason why they get so angry at me or the thread is that they do not want to think that circumcision was bad or unnecessary, so it is a case of "shoot the messenger." To avoid psychological pain, they need to believe that circumcision was their choice to make, and either good or no big deal. So then someone says I am "mean" - this means that I did not just nod along with the idea that it was the parents' decision to make and no big deal or even good. I am really sorry every time I present information that might make a parent question their decision, but the key is, it is NOT their fault; they were likely never presented with both sides of the issue and never truly had informed consent; they grew up in a society that says that circumcision is what everyone does; and they were just trying to do what is right for their children. I don't think they are bad in any way whatsoever, and I really wish that they wouldn't have to feel such pain. I just hope that people who are going to have boys in the future read and decide not to circumcise their sons.
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Old 03-24-2009, 07:48 AM   #214
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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My husband wasn't a teen or adolescent. He was a full grown adult, in his 20's who had had sexual relations prior to being circ'd. Clearly, to me, the difference between having intercourse with a circ'd penis and an intact one isn't so much less pleasurable or he probably would not have wanted to have our son(s) circ'd. He has said to me many times he prefers being circ'd, regardless of the process getting there being not a fun one.

Judging from my husbands reactions to general anesthetic (3 day hospital stay) I am POSITIVE he would have avoided it unless it was necessary. The process of going through it as an adult was traumatic, but he obviously feels that the end result of being circ'd is better and as an ADULT who has been both ways I believe he is educated enough on the subject and entitled to decide and to make the decision for our sons. If he thought the end result was worse than before then he probably wouldn't have requested that our sons have it done.

Honestly I am very supportive of those who choose not to circ, I fully well know the reasons NOT to do it. I know a non circ'd penis is not unhealthy or dirty or unsanitary. I've read, I've learned and still believe that my husband who as an adult has been on both sides, has far more authority to make the decision than I do. I am not subservient to him, I am not old fashioned, I do not walk behind him down the street. Out of 15 male grandchildren on DH's side of the family ours are the ONLY ones who were circ'd. No one in our family criticized our choice to circ, even though they chose against it. I also completely understand why many parents choose to delay Vaxing, but personally I choose to Vax on schedule. It's just what we feel is best for our children. I'm also pro-choice, failure at BFing, baby wearing, co-sleeping, semi-crunchy, non judgmental mama, who desperately hopes she can successfully BF the new baby when he arrives. I'm not irrational, and I think just as we can respect those who choose to do things differently. No one way is necessarily the "right way". The goal is to raise healthy children to be healthy productive adults. Vaxed or non vaxed, circ'd or non circ'd, Breast fed or formula fed. We all make the choices that WE feel are best for our children. We all have the same ultimate goal in mind.

Anyway. I respect everyone opinions and choices, please respect ours too but this is a battle that will be fought forever. I've said my part. I will still circ my baby. It is what we've decided even though we have all the information. Thanks
Hi Cheryl -

Thank you very much for being so calm and nice. I really respect you for being able to discuss this sensitive topic so pleasantly.

We will of course continue to disagree. I believe that however happy or unhappy a father is with the status of his foreskin, his son should be the one to decide about his own penis. Since the boy in question has to live with the decision for 80 years and is the one who will be using it, he should be the one who decides what happens to it.

On a different note, good luck with breastfeeding your new baby. Not knowing what happened before with you, so feel free to ignore me, I found the best thing for our successful breastfeeding relationships was to just expect that my baby would be completely breastfed, and expect that there might be problems, but the problems would be normal. It is normal for babies to be sleepy at the beginning, and not eat very much, it is normal for them for lose 10% of their weight... the key was to not ever give them a bottle at the beginning, whether it was pumped milk or formula, and not to schedule their feedings but to offer the breast constantly until nursing was well-established. A lot of people I know who failed did one of two things - freaked out that the baby was starving and offered a bottle, or scheduled feedings. My 2nd son didn't nurse well/hardly at all for the first two weeks, but he survived and went on to nurse for 2 years and never had any formula. Those 2 weeks were nerve-racking but I knew what to expect. Good luck with the new one - think positive and I'll send good vibes to your boobs!
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:59 AM   #215
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

All I have to say is if you want to have your baby circ'd, you should be right there with him when it is happening. If you do not have the guts to do that, you have no buisness making the choice.

My ds was circ'd. He is 15 years old. After learning the barbaric nature of this procedure, I wholeheartedly appologized to him for the mistake i have made.

If you are so ok with circ, then circ your girls too. I guess that since moms would never do that, this is a sexist issue. And WTH are all of these dads and kids hanging out naked together for? And as far as the locker room goes, when I asked my high school son about this, he said he would not be caught dead looking at someone elses penis much less make a comment about one. SO far all of the reasons I have heard for getting circd are purely materialistic. SO if everyone was cutting their baby's earlobes off ar birth would you? Cutting the earlobes off would be much less of a deal than the foreskin.
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Old 03-27-2009, 07:31 PM   #216
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

I think any mother or father who are considering having their child circumcised should watch one being done first. Preferably, watch a live one, but there are plenty of videos on youtube. Below is a link to a routine circumcision. Make sure your volume is on so that you can hear what the infant has to say about it.



Here is an article written by a father who saw a circumcision being done for the first time when it happened to his son.

http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/gmas/

He very compellingly explains his deep regret for making this uninformed decision, and I cried reading it. My husband could not finish reading it, nor could he bare to watch a video of a circumcision being performed on an infant. While he is circumcised, he was completely supportive of leaving our son intact. I don't think any informed man would want this done to their child.
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Old 03-27-2009, 07:59 PM   #217
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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I don't understand what is "not nice." There are a lot of unnecessary surgeries performed every day. Like c-sections - the WHO says that the c-section rate should be between 5 and 10%, yet in this country, it is over 30%. So do we have more deficient pelvises in America, or are some c-sections done unnecessarily b/c of the way doctors are educated, procedures are reimbursed, and people are socialized? I'm betting it is the second group of factors, not that we have a nation of bad uteri. So if someone had a c-section, and later found out (from books, internet, friends, whatever) that her c-section was likely unnecessary, would the person who clued her in be "not nice"?

Also, you misquoted me again. I did not say that for sure, I know beyond a doubt, he definitely was circumcised unnecessarily. I said it was very likely, given that conditions that require circumcision are so rare. And then I said that even if it was totally and completely necessary, it still does not mean his sons had to be circumcised.

My qualifications... just a ton of reading and research, on top of the standard college and some grad school education. I especially like medical journal articles. No, I am not a doctor. Does that mean I cannot read and study? My livelihood does not depend on what I think or feel about circumcision. A urologist's does. He makes money every time he diagnoses a problem that "requires" circumcision. A pediatrician or OB who does circumcisions makes $300 for 5 minutes' work. Who is more likely to be biased?

Speaking of bias, I have two intact sons. If I was wrong about circumcision, my decision can be changed, by my sons. I feel strongly that it is my sons' decision to make. The people who respond vociferously in this thread generally have circumcised sons. I imagine the reason why they get so angry at me or the thread is that they do not want to think that circumcision was bad or unnecessary, so it is a case of "shoot the messenger." To avoid psychological pain, they need to believe that circumcision was their choice to make, and either good or no big deal. So then someone says I am "mean" - this means that I did not just nod along with the idea that it was the parents' decision to make and no big deal or even good. I am really sorry every time I present information that might make a parent question their decision, but the key is, it is NOT their fault; they were likely never presented with both sides of the issue and never truly had informed consent; they grew up in a society that says that circumcision is what everyone does; and they were just trying to do what is right for their children. I don't think they are bad in any way whatsoever, and I really wish that they wouldn't have to feel such pain. I just hope that people who are going to have boys in the future read and decide not to circumcise their sons.

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Old 04-02-2009, 01:04 PM   #218
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

wow...thanks for the info. i don't know of any guys that are cir - dh is not, he's got 7 brothers and none of them are. none of my nephews are neither.

we're having a boy and i told dh that as soon as i have our baby, he is to make sure the doc doesn't cir him (including following the doc or nurse out if necessary). years ago, i read that some docs would just perform the procedure without asking so i'm being cautious.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:39 PM   #219
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

I have 3 sons who are not circ'd and have never had any problems ever. It was never a hard decision for me, I never did any research and never questioned my thought. Circ is wrong, painful and a horrible experience for baby. My first two sons dad was not circ'd, so it made it even easier. My last ds's dad is circ'd and wanted him to be. Thankfully my midwives showed a circ video and he changed his mind! He is now anti circ. He wishes he wasnt circ'd either, as it has made him less sensative. I dont care what anyone says, I think circing is traumatizing to your baby and can make an impact for the rest of your life. I am sickened when ppl say "the choice is my dh's because they have the same parts" or "i want him to look like his dad" or worse yet "i dont believe they really have full sensation there yet". ugh! I really try to stay away from this topic because it really pisses me off. I am glad someone who is so passionate about non circing was able to stand up and say your piece. It is hard for ppl like us to make a stand because we always get attacked. Its obvious that the more defensive someone is about their actions, the more they are questioning those actions themselves.
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:21 AM   #220
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Re: Top ten reasons not to circumcise your son

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I have 3 sons who are not circ'd and have never had any problems ever. It was never a hard decision for me, I never did any research and never questioned my thought. Circ is wrong, painful and a horrible experience for baby. My first two sons dad was not circ'd, so it made it even easier. My last ds's dad is circ'd and wanted him to be. Thankfully my midwives showed a circ video and he changed his mind! He is now anti circ. He wishes he wasnt circ'd either, as it has made him less sensative. I dont care what anyone says, I think circing is traumatizing to your baby and can make an impact for the rest of your life. I am sickened when ppl say "the choice is my dh's because they have the same parts" or "i want him to look like his dad" or worse yet "i dont believe they really have full sensation there yet". ugh! I really try to stay away from this topic because it really pisses me off. I am glad someone who is so passionate about non circing was able to stand up and say your piece. It is hard for ppl like us to make a stand because we always get attacked. Its obvious that the more defensive someone is about their actions, the more they are questioning those actions themselves.
I just wanted to say, looking at your signature, your house must be LOUD!
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