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Old 05-21-2010, 11:10 AM   #11
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

I finally remembered how to quote someone ...
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I don't want my son to have a huge social circle myself. I think that a few good, close, real friends are much better than a vast array of acquaintances. That said, I do want my DS to be able to go into a group situation (think church, office meetings, etc) and interact with others without it being a struggle for him. (Or post his ideas on a forum without coming off as a horse's patootie.)

FWIW, my DS didn't speak much until 2 and then there was this explosion. He too has huge developmental spurts. Reading was another. He had all the tools to do it in preschool but wasn't quite able to make the leap until about 9 weeks into K. Then he exploded and now reads far above his peers. Looking back, he didn't even start walking until he was ready to run. His first steps were at 14 months and he skipped the 2-6 steps and stumble phase. He just kept going and was running within a week. I think his perfectionist tendencies combined with his ADHD hold him back a bit.
YES! DS didn't speak until 2; he's kind of touch and go now but is not only progressing (albeit slowly), keeps showing he understands speech beyond his peers. He's also memorized his alphabet and numbers and understands the respective phonics and values (although perpetually attempts to read from right to left). He's always so concerned about kids in church (if another LO is crying, he runs over and pats their back, asking "What's wrong, what's wrong?") He just doesn't understand that everyone doesn't like him as much as he likes them. So, this throws the "autism" assessment. Meanwhile, he focuses (of his own accord) so well that it throws the "ADD" assessment. His fine motor skills are that of a child twice his age (he bats 0.33), and we're talking balls thrown to him, not t-ball. So, his pediatrician doesn't know what to make of him, and he's on two waiting lists for a three-way assessment. I wish I had moved on this sooner, but his old pediatrician was SO thrown by his social and fine motor aptitude that she didn't think assessment was necessary for his speech delay.

I really think that lack of awareness is a huge thing. Once awareness becomes prevalent in an area (as with autism), then all the focus gets thrown there and other potential areas get sadly ignored. And I totally agree with this misconception that the parents of ADD kids just aren't disciplined enough. Both my folks and in-laws were strict disciplinarians, but simply don't know what to do when DS throws a tantrum. I've learned to just hold him tight and keep reminding him that 1) I love him very much; and 2) he cannot throw fits because he could hurt himself or someone else and that would be very sad. That generally calms him down ... after about 10 minutes or so. Obviously consistency is key to preventing a tantrum in the first place, but it's like that Allstate commercial: "Life comes at you fast."

This has been neat to read!

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Old 05-21-2010, 10:44 PM   #12
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

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Thank you. I even mostly agree with this. Somehow the general public that has not been educated on ADHD is under the impression that it's all a parenting issue (not enough proper discipline, not enough proper food, not enough sleep, exposure to too much TV and video games) and that if the parents just step it up the kids would be just fine. This is just not the case. (There's also the other extreme impression that if you give the kid a pill, he'll be just fine and dandy and you don't even have to parent anymore. )

Research has shown over and over again that there are only 2 things that help ADHD behavior consistently: medication and behavior modification therapy. When these two are combined, the effects are even more positive. When diagnosed with ADHD, BOTH of these are prescribed. Not just medication. Not just therapy. Both. Because THEY WORK and are PROVEN to work.

Research has shown that diet modifications only work in somewhere around 4% of kids with ADHD. As a parent, who has tried diet modifications in the hopes that my DS fell into this 4% (this was when I was uneducated on it), it only seems logical to look at those things (med and BMT) that have a better track record. If you went to a dr and were diagnosed with cancer, would you choose a medication that is only 4% effective when there was another that has been proven to be 80% effective?

I think I need to copy the above paragraphs and save them since I find myself saying it over and over again. People just don't know it.
To the bolded - yes, it is a misconception. But the thing is, you are talking about TRULY ADHD cases. I understand that you mentioned all the things that should/will be tried first when there's the thought of getting tested - but my own personal reality is that those other things (therapy, behavior modification, parenting classes, etc.) did NOT happen and are NOT continuing to happen now that DSS is on medication. You are right (in the second bolded) people think that the meds will "fix" it and all the problems will just go away with no other thought about it.

This is a HUGE problem and it has so many layers I can't even make myself make sense in trying to write it all out - but the one thing I wanted to stress is that NOT everyone who is put on meds has tried the other options or even knows about them. Especially if they're a more "natural" or homeopathic line of thought - because some people don't believe in that stuff. IMHO, I think that is very limiting, but that's just the way society works. We want the medical field to swoop in and fix our problems by popping a pill. Most people don't do the research you've done and don't do the "proper" testing to be 100% certain that the diagnosis is correct. And, not everyone who is put on meds is truly ADHD.

In our case, only and ADHD med was prescribed. Nothing for his "ODD" - and no behavior modification therapy. Just meds. Before you and I had talked about this in that other thread (thanks, again!) I hadn't even heard of the term behavior modification therapy - yet I know of LOTS of kids who've taken medication. I don't think that your idea of what is prescribed for ADHD is an across the board thing - because around here, meds is all ya get. If you want anything else you have to research it yourself. Which is awfully hard to do if you don't even know there are other options and supplimentations out there to research! Most people don't know, even, that in order to get a full list of side effects for a medication they're given, you have to ask for it. They only put one in the whole big shipment, so they just don't hand them out. You have to ask for the "black list".

As to the cancer part - yes. Most do. Most people do whatever their dr tells them because they're scared and they don't know of alternatives. There are other things out there (besides chemo and radiation) that have proven very effective - but most people don't know about them and are too scared to try them. If their doctor didn't tell them about it - it must not be true.

Anyway - to the OP, I haven't seen the movie - but I'm sure I would have felt similar to you for those kids. We can't really judge because we don't truly know what things have been tried and what hasn't. and we don't know what testing has been done and what hasn't. But I would feel empathy for kids stuck in a situation they have no control over and where it appears that more could be being done to help them be comfortable. I highly highly doubt that each and every kid I know who's been diagnosed with ADHD actually has it. Just personally in my life, that is.
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:26 PM   #13
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

I don't have any kids who are diagnosed with anything, but reading some of this made me think of my nephews. My sister has 3 little boys, from age 12-18, if I am correctly remembering their current ages. All three of them are diagnosed as either ADD or ADHD. Their schools threw a fit until she took them to see a behavioral therapist when each was in kindergarten or first grade. I know with 2 of them, the original therapist said they were just more active than normal little boys and just needed some extra attention paid to them to help them calm down and everything should be fine. The school then threw a fit and demanded she see their recommended therapist, who promptly diagnosed them and wrote a prescription, and reported their 'need' for medication to the school, and etc.

Just a little annoying story about a parent being near forced to medicate their children, and the sad state of educational providers in the US.
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Old 05-22-2010, 12:04 AM   #14
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

I might have to check out the Einstein syndrome. Sounds a lot like dd, who has not been labeled with ADHD yet but definitely has all the signs and has sensory seeking issues as well (is in therapy for that, but they don't "label" this young if they can help it). And the speech delay, staircase learning (nothing until SHE decides to learn it, and then she learns almost instantly), social aspects, and there is a definite dietary component. Never give her red dye. Ever. EVER. Wish I could figure out how to go all organic on that small of a budget, though. We get some organic but it's like $80 to get organic produce for 4 meals
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Old 05-22-2010, 12:12 AM   #15
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

I would like to say as my experience as a psych nurse, we see A LOT of children that are highly over medicated. A lot of this is due to primary care physicians prescribing psychiatric medications to children and if that dose doesn't work they just up the dose. If that med doesn't work they ADD another med.There many medications that if prescribed properly, can work wonders.

Do I think ALL children need meds, no (some parents need to learn to parent properly). Do I think meds help some kids tremendously, yet. Not every child with ADD or ADHD needs meds sometimes they just need to be taught a different way to organize their thoughts and the stimuli around them.

I would definitely say if you are having issues with your child please have them examined by someone that specializes with behavioral/psychiatric issues.
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Old 05-22-2010, 10:00 AM   #16
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

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YES! DS didn't speak until 2; he's kind of touch and go now but is not only progressing (albeit slowly), keeps showing he understands speech beyond his peers. He's also memorized his alphabet and numbers and understands the respective phonics and values (although perpetually attempts to read from right to left). He's always so concerned about kids in church (if another LO is crying, he runs over and pats their back, asking "What's wrong, what's wrong?") He just doesn't understand that everyone doesn't like him as much as he likes them. So, this throws the "autism" assessment. Meanwhile, he focuses (of his own accord) so well that it throws the "ADD" assessment. His fine motor skills are that of a child twice his age (he bats 0.33), and we're talking balls thrown to him, not t-ball. So, his pediatrician doesn't know what to make of him, and he's on two waiting lists for a three-way assessment. I wish I had moved on this sooner, but his old pediatrician was SO thrown by his social and fine motor aptitude that she didn't think assessment was necessary for his speech delay.

<snip>

This has been neat to read!
It does sound like our sons have a lot in common! My DS is also very sensitive and loving towards others-especially if he perceives them as being younger or weaker and in need of extra love and help. I'm so glad that this thread has been enjoyable for you.

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To the bolded - yes, it is a misconception. But the thing is, you are talking about TRULY ADHD cases. I understand that you mentioned all the things that should/will be tried first when there's the thought of getting tested - but my own personal reality is that those other things (therapy, behavior modification, parenting classes, etc.) did NOT happen and are NOT continuing to happen now that DSS is on medication. You are right (in the second bolded) people think that the meds will "fix" it and all the problems will just go away with no other thought about it.

<snip>

In our case, only and ADHD med was prescribed. Nothing for his "ODD" - and no behavior modification therapy. Just meds. Before you and I had talked about this in that other thread (thanks, again!) I hadn't even heard of the term behavior modification therapy - yet I know of LOTS of kids who've taken medication. I don't think that your idea of what is prescribed for ADHD is an across the board thing - because around here, meds is all ya get. If you want anything else you have to research it yourself. Which is awfully hard to do if you don't even know there are other options and supplimentations out there to research! Most people don't know, even, that in order to get a full list of side effects for a medication they're given, you have to ask for it. They only put one in the whole big shipment, so they just don't hand them out. You have to ask for the "black list".

As to the cancer part - yes. Most do. Most people do whatever their dr tells them because they're scared and they don't know of alternatives. There are other things out there (besides chemo and radiation) that have proven very effective - but most people don't know about them and are too scared to try them. If their doctor didn't tell them about it - it must not be true.

<snip>
I am so sorry that your personal experience has been so frustrating. I know that not being able to step up and help has got to drive you bonkers! And I do agree that in your DSS's case not all alternatives are being looked into.

I do agree that there are plenty of kids out there who end up on medication without the BMT. However, I would venture to guess that this has more to do with the parents making that choice rather than the psychologist not recommending it. Really, often the psychologist will even have something to gain by enrolling the child in BMT because they are the ones who provide that service! Another thought on this may have to do with insurance and money. A lot of insurance doesn't cover all of the counseling, etc. but WILL cover the medication. That puts parents in a tough spot.

As for your DSS's ODD, I don't know this for certain, but I don't think there are meds out there that treat that specifically. My limited understanding is that that is something that has to be dealt with through parenting and counseling. It is also my understanding that treating the ADHD can relieve the ODD behavior a good bit as well. Kind of like ADHD being the root of the ODD. Again, limited knowledge on the ODD from any standpoint but a teaching one.

As for the cancer, are these alternatives truly proven? Is the success rate equal to or above that of the traditional 80% (pulling numbers out of rear here for discussion's sake) medication? I know that if it was my child, spouse, or self I would go with what has been proven rather than take a bigger chance with something that hasn't. Unless I'm already old and ready to go anyway or couldn't tolerate the traditional medication due to my frailty.

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I don't have any kids who are diagnosed with anything, but reading some of this made me think of my nephews. My sister has 3 little boys, from age 12-18, if I am correctly remembering their current ages. All three of them are diagnosed as either ADD or ADHD. Their schools threw a fit until she took them to see a behavioral therapist when each was in kindergarten or first grade. I know with 2 of them, the original therapist said they were just more active than normal little boys and just needed some extra attention paid to them to help them calm down and everything should be fine. The school then threw a fit and demanded she see their recommended therapist, who promptly diagnosed them and wrote a prescription, and reported their 'need' for medication to the school, and etc.

Just a little annoying story about a parent being near forced to medicate their children, and the sad state of educational providers in the US.
This story sounds very oppressive and ominous, but I have to ask: Did the boys do better on medication? Did the parents pursue alternative treatment to the medication such as BMT?

In my personal experience, we were wondering since around 3 if DS was ADHD. We asked his teachers and his pediatrician every year about it and they always said that he seemed "too bright" or "just a little on the active side" rather than ADHD, so we didn't ever pursue it. Then he hit 2nd grade and his teacher (who has experience with ADHD in her own family) mentioned that he seemed to be extremely inattentive and very easily distracted. So we took him to a psychologist for evaluation and discovered that he is ADHD-primarily inattentive type. So he's a kid that would have been looked at as lazy because he is so stinkin smart, but can't pay attention long enough to follow through on much of his work. He would have been repeatedly unfairly punished for not completing work that he just couldn't stay focused on long enough to do. He would have ended up with all sorts of emotional issues from knowing knowing knowing what he was supposed to do and having the smarts to do it, yet failing to follow through. How frustrating!

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I would like to say as my experience as a psych nurse, we see A LOT of children that are highly over medicated. A lot of this is due to primary care physicians prescribing psychiatric medications to children and if that dose doesn't work they just up the dose. If that med doesn't work they ADD another med.There many medications that if prescribed properly, can work wonders.

Do I think ALL children need meds, no (some parents need to learn to parent properly). Do I think meds help some kids tremendously, yet. Not every child with ADD or ADHD needs meds sometimes they just need to be taught a different way to organize their thoughts and the stimuli around them.

I would definitely say if you are having issues with your child please have them examined by someone that specializes with behavioral/psychiatric issues.
To the first bolded, I just can't wrap my head around doctors doing this to patients. It just seems like poor practice. Maybe we just got in with an awesome doctor. Our ped wouldn't even hear of it until we pressed him for an evaluation and referral to a specialist. He started with the lowest dose out there for the med DS is on and didn't increase it until it was very apparent that it wasn't working. The only reason he is still on it is because we went back to his diagnosing psychologist to get retested on the medication to prove that it is actually benefiting DS. Our ped seems very concerned with making sure an expert handles it and that he doesn't get into territory he is not familiar with. Are other primary care physicians just not like this?

To the second bolded. Yes! Yes! Yes! I couldn't imagine not going to a specialist for this kind of thing. It just seems like a "duh" kind of thing to me.

You mentioned you are a "Psych nurse." Are you meaning you work in the psychiatric ward of a hospital or in a clinic of some sorts?
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Old 05-22-2010, 10:19 AM   #17
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

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teaching one.

This story sounds very oppressive and ominous, but I have to ask: Did the boys do better on medication? Did the parents pursue alternative treatment to the medication such as BMT?

In my personal experience, we were wondering since around 3 if DS was ADHD. We asked his teachers and his pediatrician every year about it and they always said that he seemed "too bright" or "just a little on the active side" rather than ADHD, so we didn't ever pursue it. Then he hit 2nd grade and his teacher (who has experience with ADHD in her own family) mentioned that he seemed to be extremely inattentive and very easily distracted. So we took him to a psychologist for evaluation and discovered that he is ADHD-primarily inattentive type. So he's a kid that would have been looked at as lazy because he is so stinkin smart, but can't pay attention long enough to follow through on much of his work. He would have been repeatedly unfairly punished for not completing work that he just couldn't stay focused on long enough to do. He would have ended up with all sorts of emotional issues from knowing knowing knowing what he was supposed to do and having the smarts to do it, yet failing to follow through. How frustrating!
The middle one, I will admit, does much better on medication. I just see it as crappy mainly since I never saw the youngest as anything besides a completely normal boy. No lack of attention more than what you'd expect from a small child, he could focus, etc.

I'm pretty sure that my sister never even knew that there was suggested therapy for ADD/ADHD, she just kept talking to their dr's to get the medications lowered as much as they felt 'ok' with. I'm pretty sure that when they moved a few years ago the oldest and youngest of them simply stopped taking it, and if anything they seem to be doing better now. I just know that where I live, from improptu polling of moms, it seems that about 75% of boys pre-k thru 5th grade or so are on some type of med for attention disorders at the recommendation of their school conselors. That, to me, just seems like an excessive amoun. My polling is very definately not scientific, even accounting for a possibly biased or not varied enough group (friends, family, etc) the number would still be pretty high.
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Old 05-22-2010, 11:44 AM   #18
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

My 4 year old son has been helped tremendously by changes in his diet. My son is on the Feingold diet, which eliminates artificial colors, artificial flavors, and artificial preservatives ( and certain fruits and vegetables in the first stage).

We switched my DS diet initially, because I was searching for a reason, why he was getting sick so often. I suspected a dietary sensitivity. Prior to starting on the diet, he had chronic ear infections (until he got ear tubes), pneumonia, several cases of bronchitis and was on a daily allergy medication. I believe he was close to being diagnosed with asthma. His nose was always running and he had a chronic cough. All of that is gone now, since starting his new diet.

Prior to switching his diet, we notices that sometimes his behavior and attention span was great and other times he just couldn't settle down and pay attention. He frequently got in trouble at nap time and was sent out of his classroom to nap. His behavior seemed more impulsive and emotional. I would have to threaten to stop reading a book 5-6 times to get him back on task.

Fast Forward to now, he is able to pay attention and stay on task. He rarely has to be disciplined. And, he can read to us. Like sit and read most 3-4 letter words and sight words. He has even really picked up on phonics. He likes quizzing adults on how to spell words. Funny thing is he thinks he can stump the adults. We started him phonics before starting the diet, but everything really started clicking after we started the new diet.

I should also mention, his teachers even noticed a difference in his behavior and commented on it before we officially started the program. We just pulled the biggest artificial culprits from his diet and his behavior improved within a week.

My son's ADD symptoms were probably on the milder side of the spectrum, but I am sure he would have had difficulties if we had done nothing. Beside that he would have probably had life long problems with allergy symptoms and respiratory problems.

I think there is no one right answer for every kid. Some kids respond well to dietary and environmental changes. Some kids need a combination of medications, dietary and environmental changes. Yet, some kids may only respond to medications.

It makes me sad though, that there is not very much information out there for parents on dietary and environment changes that they could make to help their children. I think parents are often pushed toward medications as a first line solution to their problems.

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I sampled things from my local grocer's nutrition section, but then ordered direct from mills with a savings of about 40% after shipping.
What companies do you buy direct from? I am still looking for ways to save money.

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And how sad it would be for them to NOT get help or to be required to eat a special diet where they can't eat socially and it doesn't really help them overall?
My son's friends are jealous of his lunch box. His one friend keeps begging her parents to let her bring her lunch to daycare. He doesn't miss out on anything. He gets plenty of fun treats. He has lots of friends and gets invited to his friend's parties. Now we just bring safe treats for him to eat. His friend could really care less what he eats.

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Research has shown that diet modifications only work in somewhere around 4% of kids with ADHD. As a parent, who has tried diet modifications in the hopes that my DS fell into this 4% (this was when I was uneducated on it), it only seems logical to look at those things (med and BMT) that have a better track record. If you went to a dr and were diagnosed with cancer, would you choose a medication that is only 4% effective when there was another that has been proven to be 80% effective?

What research study are you quoting? There is a bunch of research on the Feingold website that links dietary sensitivities with behavior changes in children.

If your kid is one that is helped by diet, then it is worth trying. My son's health and behavior has been great since changing his diet. I wouldn't want to start my kid on the long term use of a medication, if a simple change in his diet can help him. Medications can have side effects. Taking away foods your child is sensitive doesn't carry the same potential for side effect.

Please don't criticize Moms who do chose to try and help their children by changing their diets. Do dietary changes work for everyone, no. But, don't knock it just because it didn't work for your kid.
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:51 PM   #19
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

I am kind of offended by your first post. I know you didn't mean to be offensive, but to knock Mom's who medicate - until you've walked a mile in my shoes, you have no idea. We've tried eliminating things from my son's diet, and it hasn't helped. He's never had coke, and as of now, very few artificial sweeteners (or non artificial ones, for that matter). But it doesn't help him enough. He was struggling with making friends at school, and despite the fact he is very, very smart, struggling with getting his school work done. Do you know what it is like to see your child in tears because he can't control himself? I do. So, don't knock me for medicating my child. The medication he's on - his timed math test scores literally doubled overnight. Doubled.
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Old 05-22-2010, 04:07 PM   #20
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Re: Moms with behavioral medicated children.

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Somehow the general public that has not been educated on ADHD is under the impression that it's all a parenting issue (not enough proper discipline, not enough proper food, not enough sleep, exposure to too much TV and video games) and that if the parents just step it up the kids would be just fine. This is just not the case. (There's also the other extreme impression that if you give the kid a pill, he'll be just fine and dandy and you don't even have to parent anymore. )

Research has shown over and over again that there are only 2 things that help ADHD behavior consistently: medication and behavior modification therapy. When these two are combined, the effects are even more positive. When diagnosed with ADHD, BOTH of these are prescribed. Not just medication. Not just therapy. Both. Because THEY WORK and are PROVEN to work.

Research has shown that diet modifications only work in somewhere around 4% of kids with ADHD. As a parent, who has tried diet modifications in the hopes that my DS fell into this 4% (this was when I was uneducated on it), it only seems logical to look at those things (med and BMT) that have a better track record. If you went to a dr and were diagnosed with cancer, would you choose a medication that is only 4% effective when there was another that has been proven to be 80% effective?
.
Thank you!!!!!!! My daughter is almost 10 and we've been viewed this wy her entire life. She's eaten organic and healthy, she's been breastfed, she's co-slept, she's been worn until age 3, etc. She's been parented as gently and healthy as possible. And she's been diagnosed with ADHD. But she's been viewed by mainstream parents as having no discipline and being out of control and by AP/crunchy parents with disdain because we are starting med trials. And even her dad doesn't "believe" in ADHD as well and thinks it's a lack of discipline and she's too lazy to do her homeowrk and such and thinks meds are crap. I don't win any way you slice it. And yet, I got her diagnosed properly. Teacher evaluations, parent evaluations, evals from my daughter herself, neuropysch testing on two different occasions a month apart by two separate psychologists. And still, looks of disdain and pity. It's so frustrating. I do believe 100% that diet plays a big part of kids' behaviors, even "healthy" kids without attention issues. Does your car function on crap gasoline? Well sure, but not optimally. Our kids function on poptarts and chicken nuggets but not optimally. So I definitely will be heading over to netflix to add this movie to my queue but I do want to say that while I did everything "right" with my daughter, she still has ADHD and slow processing speed and low working memory. She's got neuro issues. I'm sure there are a ton of kids being overdiagnosed with attention issues due to improper parenting and lack of nutrition and too many video games and being diagnosed by an MD instead of by a psychologist, but there are those of us who have ADHD(myself) and kids with ADHD and it's not curable with diet alone. We've known unofficially for years that Mady was different and for probably about 2-3years, it's been amazingly apparent that she's got ADHD. And we tried diet modification and behavior modification and they only work for a certain degree. They don't completely fix the issue. And after months of her darting into the road in front of oncoming traffic and her hitting her 2 year old sister in anger and her grades slipping in school and me worrying about the upcoming teen years(since she's starting to develop) I just felt backed into a corner. We started meds recently and haven't seen any effect yet but I am truly hoping for the right med and dosage to come along. It's really frustrating to have a 10 year old kid who can't be trusted out of direct line of vision and you have to ask the 5 year old to "mind your sister for 2 minutes so mommy can run trhough the shower please!"
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